Trisula of unknown origin

David · 30th November 2006, 11:03 PM

Ben, forgive me if i have in any way misunderstood or misrepresented your position. I use the word Jawa because it has been my understanding that this is how the place is referred to by the inhabitants of the island of Java. I may be incorrect in this assumption. Regardless, if it is only an old world name that is no longer in use, we are certainly discussing old world Jawa and it's weapons here, so perhaps it is appropriate.

I have no doubt that the chairman of the keris club of which you speak has done his research. I likewise have no doubt that Mr. Maisey has done his research as well. So we have different opinions. I have questioned yours because you choose to validate it with this statement " I don t like to insult any one but the most knowledge about the keris and Indonesian weapons from the past can be found in the Netherlands" instead of hard facts. Mr. Maisey presented a logical agrument which in the end doesn't prove origin one way or another, but he details how and why he comes to believe that this trisula may not be from Jawa. Knowing nothing about Trisula i find myself more swayed by Mr. Maisey's argument. It is detailed and lists reasons for his conclusion.
I would tend to disagree with you that the fight in Bali had nothing to do with misunderstandings (although, from my readings the Balinese people were very good at fighting amongst themselves with no interference from the Dutch). And it had everything to do with taking the control away, not getting it back. As i have already pointed out, we Americans have done the same thing (again and again) so this is not meant as an indictment of the Dutch per se. I was just attempting to explain that Colonial powers rarely understand the cultures that they dominate. Americans were just as bad in our own country with the indians.

I realize that English is not your first language and i may have misunderstood your remarks. If so, please forgive me.

A. G. Maisey · 1st December 2006, 12:42 AM

David, I don't think I can classify the foundation of what I have written as "research".

To me, research implies a structured search after knowledge.

This is not the base that I am writing from.

I am repeating here what I have been taught over many years by many people, and what I have learnt over many years through day to day dealing in Javanese markets.

You could probably say that I am writing from 40 years of acquired experience, rather than from a defined search for knowledge.

It would be as pretentious for me to claim I had "researched" this matter as for a carpenter to claim he had "researched" the driving of a nail.This is what I do; I live it, I don't research it.

Regarding the name "Jawa".

Jawa is ngoko for Java, Javanese, or referring to Java; the krama equivalent is Jawi.

As it is often pronounced, to your ear it would sound as "Jowo".

On any map of Indonesia where the names are in Indonesian, you will find Java identified as "Jawa". In any Indonesian or Javanese dictionary you will find the word "Jawa" with the meaning given as "Java".

Go back in history, and you can find a dozen different names given for Jawa, some have a sound close to Jawa, some do not.

The only reason I use Jawa most of the time is that I live in a house where probably more than half the conversation is in Javanese or Indonesian. In normal daily conversation I use the pronunciation Jawa. It is simply easier for me to use Jawa than Java. If anybody objects to me using Jawa, I am quite happy to go back and edit any posts I write and change the spelling. I have no problem with this.

David · 1st December 2006, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If anybody objects to me using Jawa, I am quite happy to go back and edit any posts I write and change the spelling. I have no problem with this.

I am sure this won't be necessary Alan.

Thanks for clarifying your information sources. What i meant to say really was that you were making sustainable points in your argument, no so much that you were actually "researching" the info as if writing a paper. Bad choice of words on my part.

A. G. Maisey · 1st December 2006, 02:33 AM

OK, thanks David. I thought I did need to clarify that idea of research, because some things I do need to research and go back to written sources, or do the rounds and ask questions---all that sort of stuff. Do the hard work, dig out the answers. But with the classification of wesi aji, its it part and parcel of buying in Jawa. If you cannot classify in accordance with the parameters of tangguh, you can lose out bigtime.

Why?

Simply because tangguh forms the basis for pricing. If you cannot, for instance, tell the difference between Mataram SA, Mataram Senopaten, Kajoran , and Koripan you can drop lots and lots and lots of money. Screwup on Majapahit and Tuban-Majapahit, and it can be even worse.

Understanding tangguh is essential for what I do.

VVV · 1st December 2006, 08:07 AM

I just recieved this new information from Pak Boedhi who unfortunately isn't very active on the Internet at the moment:

The metuk is "called 'methuk sungsun/susun' (double/stacked methuk)". It's a very rare metuk and he has only seen it on two tombak before, both of them Trisula, in Java.

When he writes Java I understand it as the island of Java. In an earlier mail he suspects that this Trisula is from outside what Alan describes as "The Land of Jawa". So I understand it as he also thinks, like Alan, that it doesn't follow the Javanese pakems but that it could be from an area on the same geographical island.

Michael

David · 1st December 2006, 01:48 PM

Thanks for the additional info Michael. Hopefully Boedhi will join us again soon as his posts have always been interesting and informative.
Regardless of origin you do, in my humbly uninformed opinion, have a rather nice trisula there. It would be very nice to bring the stain back up if you have the means.

VVV · 1st December 2006, 02:19 PM

Thanks David,

I like it too but I understand from those with more knowledge that it's a rather plain Trisula.
I have also been told that the spearpoint material isn't the best to stain.
But I still find it exciting and interesting to study and learn more about.

Michael

Dajak · 1st December 2006, 04:10 PM

I realize that English is not your first language and i may have misunderstood your remarks. If so, please forgive me.

[/QUOTE]

Hi David no problem about that but sometimes it is hard to explain for me it in English and write it the good way so it might looks some time arrogant but that is not my intension .
I have to apologize for that not you.

Ben

30th November 2006, 11:03 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Ben, forgive me if i have in any way misunderstood or misrepresented your position. I use the word Jawa because it has been my understanding that this is how the place is referred to by the inhabitants of the island of Java. I may be incorrect in this assumption. Regardless, if it is only an old world name that is no longer in use, we are certainly discussing old world Jawa and it's weapons here, so perhaps it is appropriate. I have no doubt that the chairman of the keris club of which you speak has done his research. I likewise have no doubt that Mr. Maisey has done his research as well. So we have different opinions. I have questioned yours because you choose to validate it with this statement " I don t like to insult any one but the most knowledge about the keris and Indonesian weapons from the past can be found in the Netherlands" instead of hard facts. Mr. Maisey presented a logical agrument which in the end doesn't prove origin one way or another, but he details how and why he comes to believe that this trisula may not be from Jawa. Knowing nothing about Trisula i find myself more swayed by Mr. Maisey's argument. It is detailed and lists reasons for his conclusion. I would tend to disagree with you that the fight in Bali had nothing to do with misunderstandings (although, from my readings the Balinese people were very good at fighting amongst themselves with no interference from the Dutch). And it had everything to do with taking the control away, not getting it back. As i have already pointed out, we Americans have done the same thing (again and again) so this is not meant as an indictment of the Dutch per se. I was just attempting to explain that Colonial powers rarely understand the cultures that they dominate. Americans were just as bad in our own country with the indians. I realize that English is not your first language and i may have misunderstood your remarks. If so, please forgive me. Last edited by David; 1st December 2006 at 02:09 AM.

1st December 2006, 12:42 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	David, I don't think I can classify the foundation of what I have written as "research". To me, research implies a structured search after knowledge. This is not the base that I am writing from. I am repeating here what I have been taught over many years by many people, and what I have learnt over many years through day to day dealing in Javanese markets. You could probably say that I am writing from 40 years of acquired experience, rather than from a defined search for knowledge. It would be as pretentious for me to claim I had "researched" this matter as for a carpenter to claim he had "researched" the driving of a nail.This is what I do; I live it, I don't research it. Regarding the name "Jawa". Jawa is ngoko for Java, Javanese, or referring to Java; the krama equivalent is Jawi. As it is often pronounced, to your ear it would sound as "Jowo". On any map of Indonesia where the names are in Indonesian, you will find Java identified as "Jawa". In any Indonesian or Javanese dictionary you will find the word "Jawa" with the meaning given as "Java". Go back in history, and you can find a dozen different names given for Jawa, some have a sound close to Jawa, some do not. The only reason I use Jawa most of the time is that I live in a house where probably more than half the conversation is in Javanese or Indonesian. In normal daily conversation I use the pronunciation Jawa. It is simply easier for me to use Jawa than Java. If anybody objects to me using Jawa, I am quite happy to go back and edit any posts I write and change the spelling. I have no problem with this. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 1st December 2006 at 12:57 AM.

1st December 2006, 08:07 AM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	added info I just recieved this new information from Pak Boedhi who unfortunately isn't very active on the Internet at the moment: The metuk is "called 'methuk sungsun/susun' (double/stacked methuk)". It's a very rare metuk and he has only seen it on two tombak before, both of them Trisula, in Java. When he writes Java I understand it as the island of Java. In an earlier mail he suspects that this Trisula is from outside what Alan describes as "The Land of Jawa". So I understand it as he also thinks, like Alan, that it doesn't follow the Javanese pakems but that it could be from an area on the same geographical island. Michael Last edited by VVV; 1st December 2006 at 09:47 AM.

1st December 2006, 02:33 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	OK, thanks David. I thought I did need to clarify that idea of research, because some things I do need to research and go back to written sources, or do the rounds and ask questions---all that sort of stuff. Do the hard work, dig out the answers. But with the classification of wesi aji, its it part and parcel of buying in Jawa. If you cannot classify in accordance with the parameters of tangguh, you can lose out bigtime. Why? Simply because tangguh forms the basis for pricing. If you cannot, for instance, tell the difference between Mataram SA, Mataram Senopaten, Kajoran , and Koripan you can drop lots and lots and lots of money. Screwup on Majapahit and Tuban-Majapahit, and it can be even worse. Understanding tangguh is essential for what I do.

1st December 2006, 01:48 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Thanks for the additional info Michael. Hopefully Boedhi will join us again soon as his posts have always been interesting and informative. Regardless of origin you do, in my humbly uninformed opinion, have a rather nice trisula there. It would be very nice to bring the stain back up if you have the means.

1st December 2006, 02:19 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks David, I like it too but I understand from those with more knowledge that it's a rather plain Trisula. I have also been told that the spearpoint material isn't the best to stain. But I still find it exciting and interesting to study and learn more about. Michael

1st December 2006, 04:10 PM	#8
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	I realize that English is not your first language and i may have misunderstood your remarks. If so, please forgive me. [/QUOTE] Hi David no problem about that but sometimes it is hard to explain for me it in English and write it the good way so it might looks some time arrogant but that is not my intension . I have to apologize for that not you. Ben