Black sea yataghan, again!

Rivkin · 5th December 2004, 04:29 PM

Concerning kindjals - these guys are kind of georgians, so kindjals are must have.

eftihis: Well, there were certain flustrating moments,
but yes, I like it a lot, we are trying to identify it right now. Would you know how it appeared in Greece ?

Yannis · 6th December 2004, 03:30 PM

Well, I was away for 1,5 month and I found a bright new forum, and a solution in an old mystery!!!

Well done Lee

Well done Eftihis

And big shame on me!!!

Shame on me because I have more than 3 years to visit Military Museum of Athens. Since then I have learn a lot and I could find interesting things to share with you.

Shame on me because I have a calendar (2002) with Saroglou Collection and I thought that that was all. But no, as Eftihis notice it is more. Black Sea yataghans are an example. So I have to go and see it.

Anyway. I love the new features of this forum...

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2004, 03:48 PM

Longfellow,
Just wanted to agree with your very astute and well placed observation. While it is extremely exciting to at last have pictorial evidence showing one of these mysterious sabres being worn by an individual of an identifiable group, it is by no means conclusive as to the origins of these weapons.
It is well known these geopolitical regions were constantly in flux , and various groups were diffused continually into other areas, so your note on the possibility of these weapons being introduced to the Laz from elsewhere has key plausibility.
The most important factor in this new evidence is that it soundly places these weapons in this cultural sphere and suggests against previous claims to North African ancestry for them.
Best regards,
Jim

Rivkin · 6th December 2004, 04:50 PM

I have no doubt that it was brought to Laz by Turks. Yataghan is not a genuine caucasian weapon.

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2004, 05:21 PM

Rivkin,
You're right, the yataghan is definitely not a Caucasian weapon, and this has been emphatically noted by contacts there. These recurved sabres are not yataghans in the true sense in that the yataghan typically has a forward or downward curved cutting edge, these have a bellied /convex cutting edge.
While these are established in Turkish regions they seem to be more aligned with Armenian/Kurdish association and reflect certain Persian influences.

The term yataghan is used in various cases in a very generic sense, such as with the so called Khyber knife, which is actually a large short sword and often colloquially termed 'Salawar yataghan'.

All the best,
Jim

Yannis · 6th December 2004, 06:48 PM

I dont want to sound like nationalist or something but I am thinking this:

Black Sea has habitants since the most ancient times. You may have heard of Jason and his Argonautes. It is the ancient Greek myth about the exploration of the area. This myth is prehistoric. Before Homer.

Also, as we know the origin of yataghan comes from kopis, the ancient greek sword.

Laz are lowland Caucasians. Their traditions, music and dances are quite the same with Pontic Greeks, that never moved from the area till early 20th century after a turkish aggression (but this is another story).

Also the hilt of a Black Sea yataghan reminds me the antenae hilts of other ancient swords.

My point is that this sword didnt ever left the area. After Greeks, Persians, Romans, Byzantines, Turks... it survived somehow against all odds.

Like in Pontic Greek language they have survive homeric words lost in modern greek.

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2004, 07:58 PM

Yannis,
Good points! The Greek influence has remained very distinctly in many elements of the cultural spheres of Central Asia, the Black Sea and Northern India. You are also on target about the influence of the kopis on the yataghan and a number of related weapons, but again the dynamics are somewhat different with convex vs. concave cutting edge.

The Caucusus, Georgia in specific, has been well established as the Colchis of Greek legend and the tales of Jason and his Argonauts. These legendary adventures place early presence of Greeks in these regions, as evidence of many early Greek settlements and trade posts which endured for considerable centuries in the Black Sea littoral. This established ancient influence does however seem to elude most of the more recent weapon forms in the Caucusus which correspond more to other influences from nomadic tribal diffusion which are also relatively more recent.

Your note on similarity of the hilt to the ancient antenna swords of the surrounding regions (i.e. Hallstadt, Burton fig.284, scramasax which has similarly curved blade as well) is also well placed, and it has been suggested that the general form of these horned 'yataghans' may recall such ancient ancestry in the Assyrian 'sapara' (Burton fig.221).The 'horned' theme on the pommels of these has equally been suggested to represent totemic value as found in tribal symbolism in these regions. The more obvious association to the Ottoman crescent does not seem applicable, and there are a number of variations in the shape of these pommels.

Excellent observations Yannis ! and nothing at all 'nationalistic' about being proud of a wonderful country which provided such rich heritage that reached a magnitude that prevails worldwide!!
All the best,
Jim

6th December 2004, 03:30 PM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	ops! Well, I was away for 1,5 month and I found a bright new forum, and a solution in an old mystery!!! Well done Lee Well done Eftihis And big shame on me!!! Shame on me because I have more than 3 years to visit Military Museum of Athens. Since then I have learn a lot and I could find interesting things to share with you. Shame on me because I have a calendar (2002) with Saroglou Collection and I thought that that was all. But no, as Eftihis notice it is more. Black Sea yataghans are an example. So I have to go and see it. Anyway. I love the new features of this forum...

6th December 2004, 06:48 PM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	maybe... I dont want to sound like nationalist or something but I am thinking this: Black Sea has habitants since the most ancient times. You may have heard of Jason and his Argonautes. It is the ancient Greek myth about the exploration of the area. This myth is prehistoric. Before Homer. Also, as we know the origin of yataghan comes from kopis, the ancient greek sword. Laz are lowland Caucasians. Their traditions, music and dances are quite the same with Pontic Greeks, that never moved from the area till early 20th century after a turkish aggression (but this is another story). Also the hilt of a Black Sea yataghan reminds me the antenae hilts of other ancient swords. My point is that this sword didnt ever left the area. After Greeks, Persians, Romans, Byzantines, Turks... it survived somehow against all odds. Like in Pontic Greek language they have survive homeric words lost in modern greek.

5th December 2004, 04:29 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Concerning kindjals - these guys are kind of georgians, so kindjals are must have. eftihis: Well, there were certain flustrating moments, but yes, I like it a lot, we are trying to identify it right now. Would you know how it appeared in Greece ?

6th December 2004, 03:48 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Longfellow, Just wanted to agree with your very astute and well placed observation. While it is extremely exciting to at last have pictorial evidence showing one of these mysterious sabres being worn by an individual of an identifiable group, it is by no means conclusive as to the origins of these weapons. It is well known these geopolitical regions were constantly in flux , and various groups were diffused continually into other areas, so your note on the possibility of these weapons being introduced to the Laz from elsewhere has key plausibility. The most important factor in this new evidence is that it soundly places these weapons in this cultural sphere and suggests against previous claims to North African ancestry for them. Best regards, Jim

6th December 2004, 04:50 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I have no doubt that it was brought to Laz by Turks. Yataghan is not a genuine caucasian weapon.

6th December 2004, 05:21 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Rivkin, You're right, the yataghan is definitely not a Caucasian weapon, and this has been emphatically noted by contacts there. These recurved sabres are not yataghans in the true sense in that the yataghan typically has a forward or downward curved cutting edge, these have a bellied /convex cutting edge. While these are established in Turkish regions they seem to be more aligned with Armenian/Kurdish association and reflect certain Persian influences. The term yataghan is used in various cases in a very generic sense, such as with the so called Khyber knife, which is actually a large short sword and often colloquially termed 'Salawar yataghan'. All the best, Jim

6th December 2004, 07:58 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Yannis, Good points! The Greek influence has remained very distinctly in many elements of the cultural spheres of Central Asia, the Black Sea and Northern India. You are also on target about the influence of the kopis on the yataghan and a number of related weapons, but again the dynamics are somewhat different with convex vs. concave cutting edge. The Caucusus, Georgia in specific, has been well established as the Colchis of Greek legend and the tales of Jason and his Argonauts. These legendary adventures place early presence of Greeks in these regions, as evidence of many early Greek settlements and trade posts which endured for considerable centuries in the Black Sea littoral. This established ancient influence does however seem to elude most of the more recent weapon forms in the Caucusus which correspond more to other influences from nomadic tribal diffusion which are also relatively more recent. Your note on similarity of the hilt to the ancient antenna swords of the surrounding regions (i.e. Hallstadt, Burton fig.284, scramasax which has similarly curved blade as well) is also well placed, and it has been suggested that the general form of these horned 'yataghans' may recall such ancient ancestry in the Assyrian 'sapara' (Burton fig.221).The 'horned' theme on the pommels of these has equally been suggested to represent totemic value as found in tribal symbolism in these regions. The more obvious association to the Ottoman crescent does not seem applicable, and there are a number of variations in the shape of these pommels. Excellent observations Yannis ! and nothing at all 'nationalistic' about being proud of a wonderful country which provided such rich heritage that reached a magnitude that prevails worldwide!! All the best, Jim