1730 Rapier or a Victorian 'Copy' .........any ideas?

Andrew · 27th November 2006, 02:48 AM

Is the original sword basically consistent with cup-hilt rapiers dated to 1730?

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2006, 06:02 PM

Hi Andrew,
Actually the cuphilt rapier had essentially given way to the smallsword in most of Europe and England by 1730, however the Spaniards, who remained formidable and extremely tradition swordsmen, still clung to thier cuphilts through the 18th century and even into the 19th.
While this example clearly is not of true cuphilt form, it is an interpretation of one.
One thing I would note at this point (no pun intended

is that the 18th century was a period of neoclassicism, revivalism and fashion obsession. There was the traditional mens obsession with dueling, and most certainly various schools of fence were wrought with members of the gentry honing thier skills for the fashionable possibility of the duel.
I think the single hope that this weapon might be a servicable weapon, although it does not seem to have age dating to 1730, may be that it could have been a revival type weapon intended for actual use in sort of a 'mens club' type atmosphere.
There were many of these underground exclusive type organizations, the secret society type with Freemasonry heading the fore. There was acute interest in cabbalism, numerology and many forms of occult practice. One such club that was notorious in England was known as the "hellfire club".

While this suggestion is admittedly 'wild speculation' on my part, and I would suggest that even during Victorian times, there was vivid revivalism that stirred romanticism along with the writing of Scott and others as well as the advent of the 'Gothic' form of novel. Perhaps this interesting piece was one of the type of weapons that became in demand, as illustrated by the work of Ernst Schmidt, even if it is not one of his actual pieces.

We may recall that the German practice of 'duelling' with 'schlagers' with the express intent of receiving battle scars was quite the rage well into the 20th century, in fact I am uncertain but may still be practiced.

Just some food for thought

All the best,
Jim

Andrew · 27th November 2006, 06:47 PM

Hi Jim:

I thought that, if this piece was generally consistant with cup hilts of the early 18th century, the stamp could simply be a catalogue mark. This would support your theory of a costume piece. Logic would dictate that a good costumer would want to keep weapons and costumes period-correct and.

Best,
Andrew

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2006, 05:29 AM

Hi Andrew,
Excellent observations! I honestly don't know much about reproductions or these Victorian or theatrical pieces, just that they play havoc with collectors as they have become antiques in thier own right, and they are often hard to tell from actual pieces. One weapon that was actually authentic was dismissed as a fake for many years by suspicious and outright paranoid authorities who had burned too many times by these. It was amazing to see this very converse situation!
Actually Schmidt, and probably others who entered this cottage industry, did not intend to deceive or defraud buyers..it was later owners who tried to pass these off as authentic. What you say seems very possible, that such markings might have alluded to the sword or type the interpretation was taken from, but this sword does not correspond to examples I am aware of, especially not as late as 1730. I think this item was fashioned with a degree of artistic license, as might have been the case in Victorian times as noted.
I am trying to find an article in "Man at Arms" regarding Schmidts work, but digging through almost 25 years of these is true archaeology!!! Andrew Mowbray, the original editor of the magazine, edited a book on Schmidts work back in 1967 (before the magazine began) and did run at least one article that corresponded. It seems quite a few of Schmidts pieces ended up in the J Woodman Higgins museum in Massachusetts, so maybe they might have some data as well.

Its good to hear from you my friend!!!

All the best,
Jim

katana · 5th December 2006, 04:42 PM

Well Gentleman....the sword has arrived...and provided more questions than answers........

The Rapier sits well in 'the hand', it weighs 2.5 lbs. There is no welding or braising evident anywhere on the sword. The cup hilt has a worn leather disc inside. The arrangement of cross guard and cup hilt 'invites' your index finger to curl around the crossguard behind the 'cup'. This hand position provides greater control of the blade. The balance point is situated approx. 10'' (26cms) from the end of the pommel. Interestingly the exact point at which the doubled false edges start....the blade finishes in a very sharp point. The tang is peened over the pommel. The hilt is slightly 'offset' from the blade and the blade itself is angled (approx. 10 degrees) from the 'centre line'. The overall impression of the construction is that it is a 'solid', no frills, 'useable' piece

Also at the 'ricasso' (?) there are crude markings ....3 dots (in a line)...then a symbol ( two 'C' 's back to back and joined at the curve. similar to the 'Chanel' logo)..and then another three dots in a line. (see diagram below)

I'm beginning to think that this was a practical piece.......perhaps a practice rapier of the Victorian era?

Comments gratefully received .......

spiral · 5th December 2006, 09:45 PM

Nice realistic fighting weight for a rapier.

I retract my, its a bludgen comment!

Spiral

katana · 5th December 2006, 11:31 PM

Hi Spiral,
thankyou for your comments.....it seems there are other factors which suggest this is a 'useable' bludgen

Further playing......I mean testing ....

the sword (rapier) feels right when excecuting a forward thrust, accurately striking a small target (with very little practice), the point easily penetrates a thick cardboard tube (the type carpets are wound around).

It seems that the CoP is 27" from the pommel (overall length is 41").

The pivot point (explaination below) is approx. 3" from tip ..suggesting a thrusting sword.

The harmonic balance of the sword is approx. 3" above the 'cup'...a thrusting sword, I understand, requires it to be nearer (and sometimes within) the guard....

""Pivot Point: When holding a sword at the top of the grip (where the grip meets the guard), point downward, between thumb and forefinger, move the sword back and forth with gentle movements of the hand. The sword will naturally pivot between your fingers and there should be a spot either along the blade or at the point where the blade seems to remain stationary. This is referred to as the pivot point -- the proper location of the pivot point will vary depending on the purpose of the sword -- a thrusting sword should have a pivot point located at the very tip of the blade point, a cutting sword may have a pivot point close to or corresponding to the CoP."" QUOTED FROM ALBION SWORDS.
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/sword-terms.htm

5th December 2006, 04:42 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Well Gentleman....the sword has arrived...and provided more questions than answers........ The Rapier sits well in 'the hand', it weighs 2.5 lbs. There is no welding or braising evident anywhere on the sword. The cup hilt has a worn leather disc inside. The arrangement of cross guard and cup hilt 'invites' your index finger to curl around the crossguard behind the 'cup'. This hand position provides greater control of the blade. The balance point is situated approx. 10'' (26cms) from the end of the pommel. Interestingly the exact point at which the doubled false edges start....the blade finishes in a very sharp point. The tang is peened over the pommel. The hilt is slightly 'offset' from the blade and the blade itself is angled (approx. 10 degrees) from the 'centre line'. The overall impression of the construction is that it is a 'solid', no frills, 'useable' piece Also at the 'ricasso' (?) there are crude markings ....3 dots (in a line)...then a symbol ( two 'C' 's back to back and joined at the curve. similar to the 'Chanel' logo)..and then another three dots in a line. (see diagram below) I'm beginning to think that this was a practical piece.......perhaps a practice rapier of the Victorian era? Comments gratefully received ....... Attached Images

27th November 2006, 02:48 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Is the original sword basically consistent with cup-hilt rapiers dated to 1730?

27th November 2006, 06:02 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Hi Andrew, Actually the cuphilt rapier had essentially given way to the smallsword in most of Europe and England by 1730, however the Spaniards, who remained formidable and extremely tradition swordsmen, still clung to thier cuphilts through the 18th century and even into the 19th. While this example clearly is not of true cuphilt form, it is an interpretation of one. One thing I would note at this point (no pun intended is that the 18th century was a period of neoclassicism, revivalism and fashion obsession. There was the traditional mens obsession with dueling, and most certainly various schools of fence were wrought with members of the gentry honing thier skills for the fashionable possibility of the duel. I think the single hope that this weapon might be a servicable weapon, although it does not seem to have age dating to 1730, may be that it could have been a revival type weapon intended for actual use in sort of a 'mens club' type atmosphere. There were many of these underground exclusive type organizations, the secret society type with Freemasonry heading the fore. There was acute interest in cabbalism, numerology and many forms of occult practice. One such club that was notorious in England was known as the "hellfire club". While this suggestion is admittedly 'wild speculation' on my part, and I would suggest that even during Victorian times, there was vivid revivalism that stirred romanticism along with the writing of Scott and others as well as the advent of the 'Gothic' form of novel. Perhaps this interesting piece was one of the type of weapons that became in demand, as illustrated by the work of Ernst Schmidt, even if it is not one of his actual pieces. We may recall that the German practice of 'duelling' with 'schlagers' with the express intent of receiving battle scars was quite the rage well into the 20th century, in fact I am uncertain but may still be practiced. Just some food for thought All the best, Jim

27th November 2006, 06:47 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Jim: I thought that, if this piece was generally consistant with cup hilts of the early 18th century, the stamp could simply be a catalogue mark. This would support your theory of a costume piece. Logic would dictate that a good costumer would want to keep weapons and costumes period-correct and. Best, Andrew

28th November 2006, 05:29 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Hi Andrew, Excellent observations! I honestly don't know much about reproductions or these Victorian or theatrical pieces, just that they play havoc with collectors as they have become antiques in thier own right, and they are often hard to tell from actual pieces. One weapon that was actually authentic was dismissed as a fake for many years by suspicious and outright paranoid authorities who had burned too many times by these. It was amazing to see this very converse situation! Actually Schmidt, and probably others who entered this cottage industry, did not intend to deceive or defraud buyers..it was later owners who tried to pass these off as authentic. What you say seems very possible, that such markings might have alluded to the sword or type the interpretation was taken from, but this sword does not correspond to examples I am aware of, especially not as late as 1730. I think this item was fashioned with a degree of artistic license, as might have been the case in Victorian times as noted. I am trying to find an article in "Man at Arms" regarding Schmidts work, but digging through almost 25 years of these is true archaeology!!! Andrew Mowbray, the original editor of the magazine, edited a book on Schmidts work back in 1967 (before the magazine began) and did run at least one article that corresponded. It seems quite a few of Schmidts pieces ended up in the J Woodman Higgins museum in Massachusetts, so maybe they might have some data as well. Its good to hear from you my friend!!! All the best, Jim

5th December 2006, 09:45 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Nice realistic fighting weight for a rapier. I retract my, its a bludgen comment! Spiral

5th December 2006, 11:31 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Spiral, thankyou for your comments.....it seems there are other factors which suggest this is a 'useable' bludgen Further playing......I mean testing .... the sword (rapier) feels right when excecuting a forward thrust, accurately striking a small target (with very little practice), the point easily penetrates a thick cardboard tube (the type carpets are wound around). It seems that the CoP is 27" from the pommel (overall length is 41"). The pivot point (explaination below) is approx. 3" from tip ..suggesting a thrusting sword. The harmonic balance of the sword is approx. 3" above the 'cup'...a thrusting sword, I understand, requires it to be nearer (and sometimes within) the guard.... ""Pivot Point: When holding a sword at the top of the grip (where the grip meets the guard), point downward, between thumb and forefinger, move the sword back and forth with gentle movements of the hand. The sword will naturally pivot between your fingers and there should be a spot either along the blade or at the point where the blade seems to remain stationary. This is referred to as the pivot point -- the proper location of the pivot point will vary depending on the purpose of the sword -- a thrusting sword should have a pivot point located at the very tip of the blade point, a cutting sword may have a pivot point close to or corresponding to the CoP."" QUOTED FROM ALBION SWORDS. http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/sword-terms.htm