Jezail rifle. Unusual version ?

ward · 26th November 2006, 07:19 PM

here is pics obviously the top one notice the distinct hook but and the immediate drop of the stock after the tang screw. afghan jezail tend to be more of a gentle slope. compare it to to the afghan jezail below it

fernando · 26th November 2006, 07:58 PM

Thank you ever so much, Ward.
These pictures are an excelent point of reference for me.
Very nice pieces.
That barrel rifling is perfect.
Thanks again
fernando

The Double D · 27th November 2006, 03:30 AM

The slightly angled pictures do appear to be rachet rifling, but the straight on picture makes it very clear it's not. Each corner is more a trough than a groove.

Philip · 30th November 2006, 11:58 PM

Hi, Fernando
Interesting piece. Indeed, this is a Sind rifle, the percussion lock indicates second half 19th cent. up to early 20th as previously noted. The shape of the lock is patterned after the style used on British Enfield rifle-muskets, which have seen combat in the Crimean War, the American Civil War, and so forth. Many of these guns were convered to breech-loading in the early 1870s (the Snider system) so they were widespread throughout the British Empire.

I suspect that the barrel on your gun is much older, with the breech altered to accept a percussion bolster and nipple. The configuration of your barrel could well indicate Persian manufacture. Without inscriptions it can be difficult to date these, but good quality ones remained in service for a long, long time.

Many of these old Persian (and Indian) barrels are of twist damascus steel. HAVE YOU TAKEN YOUR GUN APART? Often, the portion of the barrel covered by wood is less corroded and a damascus pattern might be visible.

The rifling is consistent with traditional rifled firearms of Iran and Turkey. You find this style also in the bores of rifles made in the Germanic countries prior to the 18th cent. The grooves are narrow troughs, almost always an odd number (generally 7 or 9).

fernando · 1st December 2006, 06:29 PM

Thank you so much, Philip
I wouldn't dare to dismount this piece, as its remounting would be a problem ... barrel bands, stock ( repaired ) fore end, and so.
I only risked to dismount the lockplate and, in that visible part of the barrel, there looks to be no barrel twist or any other texture.
Maybe Ward can tell something about this, as its barrel is right the same and certainly in a better condition, considering the picture of its rifled bore.
I register your info on the lock shape, copied from the British pattern. But what intrigues me, is that extra steel "tab" welded to the barrel, right in front of the percussion bolster. Not certainly a reinforcement or, at least, i wouldn't see the reason, by myself.
I will be digesting all your other precious info.
Kind regards
fernando

Philip · 2nd December 2006, 06:09 AM

Fernando,
I don't know what the functional purpose is for the elongated steel "tab" attached to the barrel ahead of the bolster. Ward's specimen has something similar. This is not a usual feature on percussion musket/rifle barrels from Europe. Looking at pictures of Sind guns fitted with flint- or matchlocks, I see no similar feature.

In Elgood's FIREARMS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD, cited above, the photo of 3 guns on p 169 contains an example (the middle one, a matchlock) with a double sling swivel just as yours has. I am trying to figure out the purpose of this; a single one would seem to be perfectly adequate, unless one of the loops was for the attachment of a chain holding the touchhole pricker (which is usually housed in a conical metal receptacle attached to the right side of the stock ahead of the trigger).

The Double D · 2nd December 2006, 11:13 AM

I must disagree with a couple of points here. It very unlikely this is a damascus barrel...generally round barrels are damascus, octagon were not. That's not an "always" that's a "ususally" There are exceptions I suppose but a damascus octagon barrel is uncommon.

The Lock is not the P53 Pattern lock. The P53 style hammer is heavier and the front of the lock plate is rounded.

This lock looks like an indigenous made copy of an English Bar lock from mid 19th century. The lock pattern being mid 19th Century. I'm not saying this rifle is 19th century.

Odd number rifling is also normally associated with English patterns. But again that is not an always.

26th November 2006, 07:19 PM	#1
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	here is pics obviously the top one notice the distinct hook but and the immediate drop of the stock after the tang screw. afghan jezail tend to be more of a gentle slope. compare it to to the afghan jezail below it Attached Images

30th November 2006, 11:58 PM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	observations on lock and possibly damascus barrel Hi, Fernando Interesting piece. Indeed, this is a Sind rifle, the percussion lock indicates second half 19th cent. up to early 20th as previously noted. The shape of the lock is patterned after the style used on British Enfield rifle-muskets, which have seen combat in the Crimean War, the American Civil War, and so forth. Many of these guns were convered to breech-loading in the early 1870s (the Snider system) so they were widespread throughout the British Empire. I suspect that the barrel on your gun is much older, with the breech altered to accept a percussion bolster and nipple. The configuration of your barrel could well indicate Persian manufacture. Without inscriptions it can be difficult to date these, but good quality ones remained in service for a long, long time. Many of these old Persian (and Indian) barrels are of twist damascus steel. HAVE YOU TAKEN YOUR GUN APART? Often, the portion of the barrel covered by wood is less corroded and a damascus pattern might be visible. The rifling is consistent with traditional rifled firearms of Iran and Turkey. You find this style also in the bores of rifles made in the Germanic countries prior to the 18th cent. The grooves are narrow troughs, almost always an odd number (generally 7 or 9).

26th November 2006, 07:58 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you ever so much, Ward. These pictures are an excelent point of reference for me. Very nice pieces. That barrel rifling is perfect. Thanks again fernando

27th November 2006, 03:30 AM	#3
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	The slightly angled pictures do appear to be rachet rifling, but the straight on picture makes it very clear it's not. Each corner is more a trough than a groove.

1st December 2006, 06:29 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much, Philip I wouldn't dare to dismount this piece, as its remounting would be a problem ... barrel bands, stock ( repaired ) fore end, and so. I only risked to dismount the lockplate and, in that visible part of the barrel, there looks to be no barrel twist or any other texture. Maybe Ward can tell something about this, as its barrel is right the same and certainly in a better condition, considering the picture of its rifled bore. I register your info on the lock shape, copied from the British pattern. But what intrigues me, is that extra steel "tab" welded to the barrel, right in front of the percussion bolster. Not certainly a reinforcement or, at least, i wouldn't see the reason, by myself. I will be digesting all your other precious info. Kind regards fernando

2nd December 2006, 06:09 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Fernando, I don't know what the functional purpose is for the elongated steel "tab" attached to the barrel ahead of the bolster. Ward's specimen has something similar. This is not a usual feature on percussion musket/rifle barrels from Europe. Looking at pictures of Sind guns fitted with flint- or matchlocks, I see no similar feature. In Elgood's FIREARMS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD, cited above, the photo of 3 guns on p 169 contains an example (the middle one, a matchlock) with a double sling swivel just as yours has. I am trying to figure out the purpose of this; a single one would seem to be perfectly adequate, unless one of the loops was for the attachment of a chain holding the touchhole pricker (which is usually housed in a conical metal receptacle attached to the right side of the stock ahead of the trigger).

2nd December 2006, 11:13 AM	#7
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	I must disagree with a couple of points here. It very unlikely this is a damascus barrel...generally round barrels are damascus, octagon were not. That's not an "always" that's a "ususally" There are exceptions I suppose but a damascus octagon barrel is uncommon. The Lock is not the P53 Pattern lock. The P53 style hammer is heavier and the front of the lock plate is rounded. This lock looks like an indigenous made copy of an English Bar lock from mid 19th century. The lock pattern being mid 19th Century. I'm not saying this rifle is 19th century. Odd number rifling is also normally associated with English patterns. But again that is not an always.