Dayak parang ilang Handle

Dajak · 26th November 2006, 05:23 PM

Hi thanks Here are some more pics the strange thing about the blade is that
the blade is concave and the otherside is convex this is normal with an parang ilang but the crowit at the handle and the point we see not at an parang ilang .
I did not see from the pic that this mandau had no flat blade , and that the carry band was complete I only saw that it was the old style carry band.
But scabbard style looks like 1850 or earlyer.

Here are some pics

VVV · 26th November 2006, 08:18 PM

Nice catch Ben!

I find the carved rib over the Tumpal (Tree of life) motif on the handle very unusual. Have you seen it before?

On the crowit and point I am not sure what you mean?
Maybe you could post some close ups of those parts of the blade and explain?
It's hard to see on the, quite dark, overall picture of the blade.

Don't you think the silver work resemble motifs found on Melanau hilts?

Bill, I think that the leech and taste of blood story is something made up outside Borneo.
But of course I might be wrong?
Like the story about the brass dots representing amount of taken heads etc.

Michael

Bill M · 26th November 2006, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Bill, I think that the leech and taste of blood story is something made up outside Borneo.
But of course I might be wrong?
Like the story about the brass dots representing amount of taken heads etc.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Always hard to tell what is an "urban rumor," and what is authentic. I got the idea about the leeches from "Iban Art," by Heppel.

The idea about the brass dots representing number of heads always seemed off to me because they were most likely in place when the blade was first made.

I guess it could be possible that a Dayak could have a blade made counting previous heads taken, though it would have been a lot of heads for so many dots.

Bill

VVV · 27th November 2006, 07:12 AM

Hi Bill,

Iban Art, published 2005, is a very nice book.
The leeches making the sword familiar drawing blood is in the book a saying that they attribute to Saribas, an area where one of the Iban groups live.
I think that's a cool but more recent explanation from the time after headhunting was practised.
The Parang Ilang is a sword that the Iban got from the Kayan in the 19th C (according to Shelford and other sources).
The original meaning for the motif IMO must be found among the Kayan.

Michael

Dajak · 27th November 2006, 08:59 AM

Hi thanks for your reply

The dots in the mandau is not an rumor there are some mandau s and pakayuns who have very litle amount off dots in the weapons that it could be true that this was in use for a little time for each head an dot.
( we see some mandau s with 100 dots or more but these are more to make the sword more fancy )

Take a look at this mandau is has very nice in lay but look at the other side the way they put in the dots

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=mandau

The handle s the top is an milano handle second one land dayak third murut
and last kayan so I think the handle off this mandau is not melanau .

take a look at the crowits I never see 2 on an kayan mandau we find this combination the most at the Iban people with their mandau 's .

so this one might be one off the first type that the Iban did get from the kayan ( but not sure about this that what I like to find out any information about this is welcome )

Hi Michael what you say about the Heppel book I have to agree with you

The same for
the Zonneveld s book see the information about the parang nabur that is in it.
And the jimpul s that one in there is not an jimpul.

Ben

VVV · 27th November 2006, 09:58 AM

Hi Ben,

Maybe on the "spooky" Mandau the dots could be heads?
Or it's just an unusual Mandau all over?

On the Melanau influence it was just the motifs on the silver grip I was referring to, not the antler hilt of course.

Both the Murut and the Land Dayak could have had contact with the Melanau for influence on their silver work on your nice swords?
Let's agree at least that it's probably made along the coast of Sarawak?

Thanks for the close ups.
Now I see what you mean and agree that it looks both unusual and interesting.
I also think that your Mandau is a "transition sword".
Maybe early Iban made Mandau, as you suggest, before they became more usual in the end of 19th C.

Michael

Dajak · 27th November 2006, 10:49 AM

Hi Michael yes in the Sarawak part maybe the North that part that is close to the Muruts you see the murut one have it too and the scabbard also your nice rare pakayun has also nice silver on the scabbard

The spooky mandau they could be heads

Yes I think this one and the pics you show me from that nice mandau
could be transition swords

would be nice that maybe you post them here

Ben

Bill M · 27th November 2006, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Hi Bill,

Iban Art, published 2005, is a very nice book.
The leeches making the sword familiar drawing blood is in the book a saying that they attribute to Saribas, an area where one of the Iban groups live.
I think that's a cool but more recent explanation from the time after headhunting was practised.
The Parang Ilang is a sword that the Iban got from the Kayan in the 19th C (according to Shelford and other sources).
The original meaning for the motif IMO must be found among the Kayan.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Do you have an "original meaning for the motif found among the Kayan?" Or could it be the same?

It seems that a great number of these hilts have similar carvings, so it seems to be an important symbol.

Some symbols are rooted in antiquity and faithfully reproduced while others have lost their original meaning and are just copied because they have been there a long time.

I very much appreciate your knowledge and am going to post a few of my Dayak pieces in the hopes of learning more.

Curious Bill

VVV · 27th November 2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Hi Michael,

Do you have an "original meaning for the motif found among the Kayan?" Or could it be the same?

It seems that a great number of these hilts have similar carvings, so it seems to be an important symbol.

Some symbols are rooted in antiquity and faithfully reproduced while others have lost their original meaning and are just copied because they have been there a long time.

I very much appreciate your knowledge and am going to post a few of my Dayak pieces in the hopes of learning more.

Curious Bill

Hi Bill,

Missed your post first because it came before Ben's.
I will try to find time tonight, or tomorrow night, to go through some of the old works and different ideas on what the "leech" motif represents.
I prefer to base it on quotes so everybody has the same sources to form their own opinion on this.
Look forward to see your Dayak pieces.
Maybe in a separate thread, so we can limit this thread to discuss Iban-Kayan transition Mandau?

Michael

Bill M · 27th November 2006, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Hi Bill,

Missed your post first because it came before Ben's.
I will try to find time tonight, or tomorrow night, to go through some of the old works and different ideas on what the "leech" motif represents.
I prefer to base it on quotes so everybody has the same sources to form their own opinion on this.
Look forward to see your Dayak pieces.
Maybe in a separate thread, so we can limit this thread to discuss Iban-Kayan transition Mandau?

Michael

Of course

26th November 2006, 05:23 PM	#1
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi thanks Here are some more pics the strange thing about the blade is that the blade is concave and the otherside is convex this is normal with an parang ilang but the crowit at the handle and the point we see not at an parang ilang . I did not see from the pic that this mandau had no flat blade , and that the carry band was complete I only saw that it was the old style carry band. But scabbard style looks like 1850 or earlyer. Here are some pics Attached Images

27th November 2006, 08:59 AM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi thanks for your reply The dots in the mandau is not an rumor there are some mandau s and pakayuns who have very litle amount off dots in the weapons that it could be true that this was in use for a little time for each head an dot. ( we see some mandau s with 100 dots or more but these are more to make the sword more fancy ) Take a look at this mandau is has very nice in lay but look at the other side the way they put in the dots http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=mandau The handle s the top is an milano handle second one land dayak third murut and last kayan so I think the handle off this mandau is not melanau . take a look at the crowits I never see 2 on an kayan mandau we find this combination the most at the Iban people with their mandau 's . so this one might be one off the first type that the Iban did get from the kayan ( but not sure about this that what I like to find out any information about this is welcome ) Hi Michael what you say about the Heppel book I have to agree with you The same for the Zonneveld s book see the information about the parang nabur that is in it. And the jimpul s that one in there is not an jimpul. Ben Attached Images

26th November 2006, 08:18 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice catch Ben! I find the carved rib over the Tumpal (Tree of life) motif on the handle very unusual. Have you seen it before? On the crowit and point I am not sure what you mean? Maybe you could post some close ups of those parts of the blade and explain? It's hard to see on the, quite dark, overall picture of the blade. Don't you think the silver work resemble motifs found on Melanau hilts? Bill, I think that the leech and taste of blood story is something made up outside Borneo. But of course I might be wrong? Like the story about the brass dots representing amount of taken heads etc. Michael

27th November 2006, 07:12 AM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Bill, Iban Art, published 2005, is a very nice book. The leeches making the sword familiar drawing blood is in the book a saying that they attribute to Saribas, an area where one of the Iban groups live. I think that's a cool but more recent explanation from the time after headhunting was practised. The Parang Ilang is a sword that the Iban got from the Kayan in the 19th C (according to Shelford and other sources). The original meaning for the motif IMO must be found among the Kayan. Michael

27th November 2006, 09:58 AM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Ben, Maybe on the "spooky" Mandau the dots could be heads? Or it's just an unusual Mandau all over? On the Melanau influence it was just the motifs on the silver grip I was referring to, not the antler hilt of course. Both the Murut and the Land Dayak could have had contact with the Melanau for influence on their silver work on your nice swords? Let's agree at least that it's probably made along the coast of Sarawak? Thanks for the close ups. Now I see what you mean and agree that it looks both unusual and interesting. I also think that your Mandau is a "transition sword". Maybe early Iban made Mandau, as you suggest, before they became more usual in the end of 19th C. Michael

27th November 2006, 10:49 AM	#7
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael yes in the Sarawak part maybe the North that part that is close to the Muruts you see the murut one have it too and the scabbard also your nice rare pakayun has also nice silver on the scabbard The spooky mandau they could be heads Yes I think this one and the pics you show me from that nice mandau could be transition swords would be nice that maybe you post them here Ben