Balinese kris from Polish Museum

Mick · 15th February 2005, 10:11 PM

Wolviex

I think that is just what Dave was looking for. The sheath shows that the front part of the opening was plugged and then recut for this piece. Therefore the sheath was not made for this keris. The rear portion is somewhat ambiguous.

Correct that; the rear portion also shows a plug, but the beat up area in front of it ends well before the original cutout.

DAHenkel · 15th February 2005, 10:44 PM

Precisely Mick.

Why this happened is a matter for speculation. Item of keris dress were often sold off or exchanged for various reasons. Economic distress etc. etc.

This we know.

What we don't know is why this blade was fitted to this particular sheath. There can be two possibilities.

One is that the dress was sold off to an "antique dealer" who refitted the blade for sale to a "tourist" or in this case, a museum curator it appears. Why this blade was chosen is a bit of a mystery. After all the dealer would stand to profit more by using a finer blade but perhaps he was relying or speculating on the ignorance of his clientele.

The other possibility is that this was a more "traditional" exchange where one Balinese sold the dress to another. Perhaps someone wanted to dress this particular blade in finer clothing but saw the second hand dress as a better value than commissioning a new set.

The only clues we have are the relatively careful and neat job done to re-fit the blade, which was not always done, particularly for tourist keris. And of course, the blade itself.

I would contend however that there is more than meets the eye with this blade. It is not a "bad" keris in the normal sense of the word IMO. It has clearly got some age to it and has been well cared for in the normal way. The unusual aspects of this keris include the ganja iras and the curious "pitting" effect of one type of metal on the blade paticularly around the dapur area.

You must also understand that traditionally, ganja iras was neither common nor undesirable. Real, old keris ganja iras are quite rare although certainly not impossible to find and were considered to have special magickal properites. It is not just a "cheap shortcut" way of making a blade.

You must realise of course that I am not "defending" this blade on aesthetic grounds, though to an extent it does have that certain something that nice old blades can have when they're well looked after. What I am against is the notion that just because, to our Western eye this keris is not up to the standard of the dress, that this was necessarily so for the Balinese.

wolviex · 16th February 2005, 04:19 PM

Thank you all for help!
DAHenkel, your concrete and complex replies are very helpful. Writing about curious "pitting" effect you mean probably - let's call it - visible "ironmoulds". Maybe I'll try to post another picture of the other side of the blade, there, as you will see, this "pittings" are almost regular. Well, I don't think these are real corosion ironmoulds, do you think it's made with acid, any other ideas ??

And returning to my questions form the beginning of this thread. The hilt is very thick, that can barely fit to my hand. Are all the balinese hilts of this type so thick ? It's very uncomfortable, even if it was used only for representation purposes.

Thank you in advance!

wolviex · 17th February 2005, 06:33 PM

Photos I promised to post: another side of blade with visible, almost regular in some part of the blade stains/pittings. And close-up photo of one of them.

So any ideas what it could be, and how it was made?

Radu Transylvanicus · 17th February 2005, 10:04 PM

Gee, Wolviex I keep admiring how these nice Malay pieces come out of the Polish museums, I think I solved the mistery ... hmm I am wondering if some sort of Przewalski guy from your hometown fall for some Balinese erotic dancer and when she run away he got mad and try to find some local stuff to beat the crap out of her and then the European in him brought it all back to Polska ...

lol , forgive me I got carried away by envy ...

Ian · 17th February 2005, 10:46 PM

Wolviex:

I refrain from commenting on keris because I am most ignorant with respect to these weapons. But that's a very interesting pattern you show on the blade. It reminds me of the "ladder" effect seen on some Indo-Persian wootz blades. Do you think the blade pattern here is caused by a similar forging process?

Ian.

wolviex · 18th February 2005, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

that's a very interesting pattern you show on the blade. It reminds me of the "ladder" effect seen on some Indo-Persian wootz blades. Do you think the blade pattern here is caused by a similar forging process?
Ian.

Ian: that's what I'm trying to find out

. So now let's wait together, maybe one of our friends from "kris sindicate" will have some ideas about it

tom hyle · 19th February 2005, 03:53 PM

I think I've seen the ladder pattern from every culture that I've seen manipulate layered steel for pattern; Europe, N Africa, Tartaric, Hindoo, Chinese, Japanese, Oceanic SE Asian (not sure about the mainland, but I can hardly imagine it wouldn't....), and the more I see, the more widely I see steel manipulated for pattern wherever it is forged into blades (subsaharan Africa is the "blank" area; perhaps for lack of testing [the "African art" people invariably love the dark patina], perhaps for the legendary purity of the African iron thus not learning folding, etc.; thoughts on that one; very little real input. The c19 Ethiopian army spear I etched is quite homogenous, but other African blades I've seen display welding flaws and rust-etching that makes straight/straightish layering visible.). I've seen laddered pamor on quite a few k(e)ris. The wootz faction are probably correct that wootz/bulat is "true"ly the Damascus steel spoken of in old Europe; the "magical" (ie. different) steel of the East (this is nearly certain, as the other famous "Eastern" steel blade technologies like folding and welded edges, were also in common/general use in Europe, fading slowly during and after the 18thc.), but they are very likely dead wrong that only a wootz blade would be "truly" ladder of the prophet (BTW there are many expressions in many languages to refer to this religious symbol); certainly the same technique is used, in at least some of the same cultures, to make pretty much the same pattern on folded steel, and isn't it made in cloth and wood carvings, too, for that matter? Aside; I once had an old khoumiya with a lineal laminate blade that had been buffed in bands to imitate laddered steel. Faked pattern on what could now be viewed as "Damascus" steel. It was an older 20th piece, and a fakery of this sort was more likely for the native market, it seems to me....
BTW, I'm told that in Persia and/or Turkey it was a traditionally admired and sought after (and by no means universally achieved) goal to fit actually "40 steps", which is not so big a deal on a sword, though a lot of work, but on an 8" kard blade.....

nechesh · 20th February 2005, 08:34 AM

Wolviex, I wonder if you could provide us with a bit more information about this piece. Firstly, exactly where and when was it collected? Any chance the museum knows from whom it was obtained? Has the metal in the pendok and topengan ever been tested? Do we know for sure that it is solid gold is could it be plated? Have you ever had the pendok off the gander and looked inside? Have you found out any more about the stones in the eyes? Lastly, and this is directed at our keris group in general, is it possible that this hilt could not be Balinese at all, but the Madurese form of this particular style? It is shorter and fatter than the typical Bali form, which is exactly the way Madura style would be. It is also interesting to note that Madura is also known for the use of topengan on sheaths.

Montino Bourbon · 23rd February 2005, 12:29 AM

The pattern on the blade looks a little like pamor sumsum buron.

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 02:05 PM

The wood of this keris is called Timoho and the type of Timoho is Timaha Pelet Ceplok Banteng or Belang Sapi, meaning Timoho wood with stains like the markings on a Banteng or a Cow, although in Bali the wood is called Purnamasadha, I believe the Latin name is Kleinhovia Hospita L. The same wood is used for the sheath and also for the danganan which is in the cecekahan style. This type of Timoho is believed by some to bring prosperity.

The ganja iras is an indiction that the keris was made by a village rather than a Kraton Mpu. It might also mean that it was a very old blade as the dapur would seem to be a Java brojol ganja iras. The dapur brojol is one of the oldest shapes of keris blades. The fact that the warangka was not made for this blade indicates that an antique dealer was involved. From a purely physical point of view the warangka with all the gold is more valuable than the blade. The owner of the blade would have made a new warangka specially for his blade if he felt that he needed one. Having a warangka that fits perfectly is an important part of the symbolism of the keris.

Salam keris

Bill · 29th April 2005, 03:44 PM

is it possible that this keris has a seperate ganga? it appears that if there was a scratch line it has been layered unto. doesn't seem to layers deterioting off as much as layers added & then deterioting? has there ever been the practice of adding layers to a old blade; for whatever purpose?

15th February 2005, 10:11 PM	#1
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Wolviex I think that is just what Dave was looking for. The sheath shows that the front part of the opening was plugged and then recut for this piece. Therefore the sheath was not made for this keris. The rear portion is somewhat ambiguous. Correct that; the rear portion also shows a plug, but the beat up area in front of it ends well before the original cutout. Last edited by Mick; 15th February 2005 at 10:25 PM.

17th February 2005, 06:33 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Photos I promised to post: another side of blade with visible, almost regular in some part of the blade stains/pittings. And close-up photo of one of them. So any ideas what it could be, and how it was made? Attached Images

19th February 2005, 03:53 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I think I've seen the ladder pattern from every culture that I've seen manipulate layered steel for pattern; Europe, N Africa, Tartaric, Hindoo, Chinese, Japanese, Oceanic SE Asian (not sure about the mainland, but I can hardly imagine it wouldn't....), and the more I see, the more widely I see steel manipulated for pattern wherever it is forged into blades (subsaharan Africa is the "blank" area; perhaps for lack of testing [the "African art" people invariably love the dark patina], perhaps for the legendary purity of the African iron thus not learning folding, etc.; thoughts on that one; very little real input. The c19 Ethiopian army spear I etched is quite homogenous, but other African blades I've seen display welding flaws and rust-etching that makes straight/straightish layering visible.). I've seen laddered pamor on quite a few k(e)ris. The wootz faction are probably correct that wootz/bulat is "true"ly the Damascus steel spoken of in old Europe; the "magical" (ie. different) steel of the East (this is nearly certain, as the other famous "Eastern" steel blade technologies like folding and welded edges, were also in common/general use in Europe, fading slowly during and after the 18thc.), but they are very likely dead wrong that only a wootz blade would be "truly" ladder of the prophet (BTW there are many expressions in many languages to refer to this religious symbol); certainly the same technique is used, in at least some of the same cultures, to make pretty much the same pattern on folded steel, and isn't it made in cloth and wood carvings, too, for that matter? Aside; I once had an old khoumiya with a lineal laminate blade that had been buffed in bands to imitate laddered steel. Faked pattern on what could now be viewed as "Damascus" steel. It was an older 20th piece, and a fakery of this sort was more likely for the native market, it seems to me.... BTW, I'm told that in Persia and/or Turkey it was a traditionally admired and sought after (and by no means universally achieved) goal to fit actually "40 steps", which is not so big a deal on a sword, though a lot of work, but on an 8" kard blade..... Last edited by tom hyle; 19th February 2005 at 04:50 PM.

15th February 2005, 10:44 PM	#2
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Precisely Mick. Why this happened is a matter for speculation. Item of keris dress were often sold off or exchanged for various reasons. Economic distress etc. etc. This we know. What we don't know is why this blade was fitted to this particular sheath. There can be two possibilities. One is that the dress was sold off to an "antique dealer" who refitted the blade for sale to a "tourist" or in this case, a museum curator it appears. Why this blade was chosen is a bit of a mystery. After all the dealer would stand to profit more by using a finer blade but perhaps he was relying or speculating on the ignorance of his clientele. The other possibility is that this was a more "traditional" exchange where one Balinese sold the dress to another. Perhaps someone wanted to dress this particular blade in finer clothing but saw the second hand dress as a better value than commissioning a new set. The only clues we have are the relatively careful and neat job done to re-fit the blade, which was not always done, particularly for tourist keris. And of course, the blade itself. I would contend however that there is more than meets the eye with this blade. It is not a "bad" keris in the normal sense of the word IMO. It has clearly got some age to it and has been well cared for in the normal way. The unusual aspects of this keris include the ganja iras and the curious "pitting" effect of one type of metal on the blade paticularly around the dapur area. You must also understand that traditionally, ganja iras was neither common nor undesirable. Real, old keris ganja iras are quite rare although certainly not impossible to find and were considered to have special magickal properites. It is not just a "cheap shortcut" way of making a blade. You must realise of course that I am not "defending" this blade on aesthetic grounds, though to an extent it does have that certain something that nice old blades can have when they're well looked after. What I am against is the notion that just because, to our Western eye this keris is not up to the standard of the dress, that this was necessarily so for the Balinese.

16th February 2005, 04:19 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you all for help! DAHenkel, your concrete and complex replies are very helpful. Writing about curious "pitting" effect you mean probably - let's call it - visible "ironmoulds". Maybe I'll try to post another picture of the other side of the blade, there, as you will see, this "pittings" are almost regular. Well, I don't think these are real corosion ironmoulds, do you think it's made with acid, any other ideas ?? And returning to my questions form the beginning of this thread. The hilt is very thick, that can barely fit to my hand. Are all the balinese hilts of this type so thick ? It's very uncomfortable, even if it was used only for representation purposes. Thank you in advance!

17th February 2005, 10:04 PM	#5
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Gee, Wolviex I keep admiring how these nice Malay pieces come out of the Polish museums, I think I solved the mistery ... hmm I am wondering if some sort of Przewalski guy from your hometown fall for some Balinese erotic dancer and when she run away he got mad and try to find some local stuff to beat the crap out of her and then the European in him brought it all back to Polska ... lol , forgive me I got carried away by envy ...

17th February 2005, 10:46 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Wolviex: I refrain from commenting on keris because I am most ignorant with respect to these weapons. But that's a very interesting pattern you show on the blade. It reminds me of the "ladder" effect seen on some Indo-Persian wootz blades. Do you think the blade pattern here is caused by a similar forging process? Ian.

20th February 2005, 08:34 AM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wolviex, I wonder if you could provide us with a bit more information about this piece. Firstly, exactly where and when was it collected? Any chance the museum knows from whom it was obtained? Has the metal in the pendok and topengan ever been tested? Do we know for sure that it is solid gold is could it be plated? Have you ever had the pendok off the gander and looked inside? Have you found out any more about the stones in the eyes? Lastly, and this is directed at our keris group in general, is it possible that this hilt could not be Balinese at all, but the Madurese form of this particular style? It is shorter and fatter than the typical Bali form, which is exactly the way Madura style would be. It is also interesting to note that Madura is also known for the use of topengan on sheaths.

23rd February 2005, 12:29 AM	#10
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	The pattern on the blade looks a little like pamor sumsum buron.

29th April 2005, 02:05 PM	#11
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	The wood of this keris is called Timoho and the type of Timoho is Timaha Pelet Ceplok Banteng or Belang Sapi, meaning Timoho wood with stains like the markings on a Banteng or a Cow, although in Bali the wood is called Purnamasadha, I believe the Latin name is Kleinhovia Hospita L. The same wood is used for the sheath and also for the danganan which is in the cecekahan style. This type of Timoho is believed by some to bring prosperity. The ganja iras is an indiction that the keris was made by a village rather than a Kraton Mpu. It might also mean that it was a very old blade as the dapur would seem to be a Java brojol ganja iras. The dapur brojol is one of the oldest shapes of keris blades. The fact that the warangka was not made for this blade indicates that an antique dealer was involved. From a purely physical point of view the warangka with all the gold is more valuable than the blade. The owner of the blade would have made a new warangka specially for his blade if he felt that he needed one. Having a warangka that fits perfectly is an important part of the symbolism of the keris. Salam keris

29th April 2005, 03:44 PM	#12
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	is it possible that this keris has a seperate ganga? it appears that if there was a scratch line it has been layered unto. doesn't seem to layers deterioting off as much as layers added & then deterioting? has there ever been the practice of adding layers to a old blade; for whatever purpose?