True Combat Value of Wootz

Gt Obach · 24th November 2006, 04:41 PM

Hi

Metallographic examination of two damascene steel blades... by Jerzy Piaskowski... 1978

no mention of Martensite but sorbitic matrix...

SORBITE:

Structure of steel, resulting from the tempering of martensite. In a truly sorbitic structure, the cementite is completely dispersed in the matrix. The trend is to call this structure tempered martensite.

this can be confusing... because i don't know if people still use that term sorbite... .. i know the bladesmiths all call it tempered martensite..

Look on pg 9 in the " discussions "
-- the structure of both blades is very uniform along the whole of the cross-section. The measurements of hardness showed identical values for each of the swords which, in turn, points to the fact that the blades were subjected to quenching and tempering, according to the descriptions by J. Barker and Massalski, who travelled in the Near East.

so... .. I was wrong...... as their is some evidence.....

thank you...

Greg

another quote from the study..

" strips of carbides are visible to the naked eye on the blades surfaces and appear in the form of light coloured bands typical of the damascus pattern, whereas the dark background of this pattern forms a sorbitic matrix "

tsubame1 · 24th November 2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

this can be confusing... because i don't know if people still use that term sorbite... .. i know the bladesmiths all call it tempered martensite.

You're right. Sorbite is martensite tempered at high temperatures (600°)
for quiet a long period and is known as tempered martensite.

Hereunder two exaples from my HD :

Typical structure of oil quenched martensite :

Sorbite (martensite quenched in oil and tempered at 600° C for 2 hours) :

Rivkin · 24th November 2006, 10:34 PM

Very interesting. I thought for example Anosov used graphite instead of traditional materials such as coal/wood. But taking in mind that I have no idea how smithing works, it well may be that I am saying that simple shocks the present in its ignorance

.

tsubame1 · 24th November 2006, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I thought for example Anosov used graphite instead of traditional materials such as coal/wood.

Usually graphite is found in cast (pig) iron being connected with a too much
high carbon content (2,8%-3,8%). I wonder if the burning of graphite
in these experiments can be connected with transferring some carbon to
steel or simply because it achieve the needed temperature in a faster
way or it can hold such temperature longer (only supposing about these two
last properties of graphite).

Japanese smiths transfer carbon to the blade using vegetal fiber wrapping
in certain stages of the smithing. Might be that putting steel into a
burning graphite bed is intended to the same aim to compensate the
carbon loss during the smithing ? Are wootz/crucible steel blades
folded many times as the japanese ones, meaning a loss of carbon in the
process and so needing a trick to maintain high the carbon content ?

24th November 2006, 04:41 PM	#1
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Hi Metallographic examination of two damascene steel blades... by Jerzy Piaskowski... 1978 no mention of Martensite but sorbitic matrix... SORBITE: Structure of steel, resulting from the tempering of martensite. In a truly sorbitic structure, the cementite is completely dispersed in the matrix. The trend is to call this structure tempered martensite. this can be confusing... because i don't know if people still use that term sorbite... .. i know the bladesmiths all call it tempered martensite.. Look on pg 9 in the " discussions " -- the structure of both blades is very uniform along the whole of the cross-section. The measurements of hardness showed identical values for each of the swords which, in turn, points to the fact that the blades were subjected to quenching and tempering, according to the descriptions by J. Barker and Massalski, who travelled in the Near East. so... .. I was wrong...... as their is some evidence..... thank you... Greg another quote from the study.. " strips of carbides are visible to the naked eye on the blades surfaces and appear in the form of light coloured bands typical of the damascus pattern, whereas the dark background of this pattern forms a sorbitic matrix " Last edited by Gt Obach; 24th November 2006 at 05:25 PM.

24th November 2006, 10:34 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Very interesting. I thought for example Anosov used graphite instead of traditional materials such as coal/wood. But taking in mind that I have no idea how smithing works, it well may be that I am saying that simple shocks the present in its ignorance .