Balinese kris from Polish Museum

wolviex · 15th February 2005, 08:23 PM

Mick: your sheath is beautiful, it's made entire with Pelet wood, while this from Museum has only wrangka made of this wood.

Ok, few more precise informations.

One of the experts in museum was kind enough to check the stones on the pendok for me. He was looking, checking, microscoping, and he said this are VERY HIGH QUALITY ROCK CRYSTALS! Not diamonds, but very high quality rock crystals sounds not bad

Nechesh: I will refit the pendok if it is only possible. I won't do it alone, and I want a conservator to do it - he's got tools, experience, and he is an expert anyway. So this must wait, but if we will do it, I'll post a picture.

John: thank you for the Boma hint

. It's next name for the collection

, but this time there are many more hits at google. And google don't lies...

And here are the additional photos of the sheath. You can clearly see, that corners of the entrance to the sheath are piece on. DAHenkel, is this what you wanted me to show you?

Mick · 15th February 2005, 10:11 PM

Wolviex

I think that is just what Dave was looking for. The sheath shows that the front part of the opening was plugged and then recut for this piece. Therefore the sheath was not made for this keris. The rear portion is somewhat ambiguous.

Correct that; the rear portion also shows a plug, but the beat up area in front of it ends well before the original cutout.

DAHenkel · 15th February 2005, 10:44 PM

Precisely Mick.

Why this happened is a matter for speculation. Item of keris dress were often sold off or exchanged for various reasons. Economic distress etc. etc.

This we know.

What we don't know is why this blade was fitted to this particular sheath. There can be two possibilities.

One is that the dress was sold off to an "antique dealer" who refitted the blade for sale to a "tourist" or in this case, a museum curator it appears. Why this blade was chosen is a bit of a mystery. After all the dealer would stand to profit more by using a finer blade but perhaps he was relying or speculating on the ignorance of his clientele.

The other possibility is that this was a more "traditional" exchange where one Balinese sold the dress to another. Perhaps someone wanted to dress this particular blade in finer clothing but saw the second hand dress as a better value than commissioning a new set.

The only clues we have are the relatively careful and neat job done to re-fit the blade, which was not always done, particularly for tourist keris. And of course, the blade itself.

I would contend however that there is more than meets the eye with this blade. It is not a "bad" keris in the normal sense of the word IMO. It has clearly got some age to it and has been well cared for in the normal way. The unusual aspects of this keris include the ganja iras and the curious "pitting" effect of one type of metal on the blade paticularly around the dapur area.

You must also understand that traditionally, ganja iras was neither common nor undesirable. Real, old keris ganja iras are quite rare although certainly not impossible to find and were considered to have special magickal properites. It is not just a "cheap shortcut" way of making a blade.

You must realise of course that I am not "defending" this blade on aesthetic grounds, though to an extent it does have that certain something that nice old blades can have when they're well looked after. What I am against is the notion that just because, to our Western eye this keris is not up to the standard of the dress, that this was necessarily so for the Balinese.

wolviex · 16th February 2005, 04:19 PM

Thank you all for help!
DAHenkel, your concrete and complex replies are very helpful. Writing about curious "pitting" effect you mean probably - let's call it - visible "ironmoulds". Maybe I'll try to post another picture of the other side of the blade, there, as you will see, this "pittings" are almost regular. Well, I don't think these are real corosion ironmoulds, do you think it's made with acid, any other ideas ??

And returning to my questions form the beginning of this thread. The hilt is very thick, that can barely fit to my hand. Are all the balinese hilts of this type so thick ? It's very uncomfortable, even if it was used only for representation purposes.

Thank you in advance!

wolviex · 17th February 2005, 06:33 PM

Photos I promised to post: another side of blade with visible, almost regular in some part of the blade stains/pittings. And close-up photo of one of them.

So any ideas what it could be, and how it was made?

Radu Transylvanicus · 17th February 2005, 10:04 PM

Gee, Wolviex I keep admiring how these nice Malay pieces come out of the Polish museums, I think I solved the mistery ... hmm I am wondering if some sort of Przewalski guy from your hometown fall for some Balinese erotic dancer and when she run away he got mad and try to find some local stuff to beat the crap out of her and then the European in him brought it all back to Polska ...

lol , forgive me I got carried away by envy ...

Ian · 17th February 2005, 10:46 PM

Wolviex:

I refrain from commenting on keris because I am most ignorant with respect to these weapons. But that's a very interesting pattern you show on the blade. It reminds me of the "ladder" effect seen on some Indo-Persian wootz blades. Do you think the blade pattern here is caused by a similar forging process?

Ian.

15th February 2005, 08:23 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Mick: your sheath is beautiful, it's made entire with Pelet wood, while this from Museum has only wrangka made of this wood. Ok, few more precise informations. One of the experts in museum was kind enough to check the stones on the pendok for me. He was looking, checking, microscoping, and he said this are VERY HIGH QUALITY ROCK CRYSTALS! Not diamonds, but very high quality rock crystals sounds not bad Nechesh: I will refit the pendok if it is only possible. I won't do it alone, and I want a conservator to do it - he's got tools, experience, and he is an expert anyway. So this must wait, but if we will do it, I'll post a picture. John: thank you for the Boma hint . It's next name for the collection , but this time there are many more hits at google. And google don't lies... And here are the additional photos of the sheath. You can clearly see, that corners of the entrance to the sheath are piece on. DAHenkel, is this what you wanted me to show you? Attached Images

15th February 2005, 10:11 PM	#2
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Wolviex I think that is just what Dave was looking for. The sheath shows that the front part of the opening was plugged and then recut for this piece. Therefore the sheath was not made for this keris. The rear portion is somewhat ambiguous. Correct that; the rear portion also shows a plug, but the beat up area in front of it ends well before the original cutout. Last edited by Mick; 15th February 2005 at 10:25 PM.

17th February 2005, 06:33 PM	#5
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Photos I promised to post: another side of blade with visible, almost regular in some part of the blade stains/pittings. And close-up photo of one of them. So any ideas what it could be, and how it was made? Attached Images

15th February 2005, 10:44 PM	#3
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Precisely Mick. Why this happened is a matter for speculation. Item of keris dress were often sold off or exchanged for various reasons. Economic distress etc. etc. This we know. What we don't know is why this blade was fitted to this particular sheath. There can be two possibilities. One is that the dress was sold off to an "antique dealer" who refitted the blade for sale to a "tourist" or in this case, a museum curator it appears. Why this blade was chosen is a bit of a mystery. After all the dealer would stand to profit more by using a finer blade but perhaps he was relying or speculating on the ignorance of his clientele. The other possibility is that this was a more "traditional" exchange where one Balinese sold the dress to another. Perhaps someone wanted to dress this particular blade in finer clothing but saw the second hand dress as a better value than commissioning a new set. The only clues we have are the relatively careful and neat job done to re-fit the blade, which was not always done, particularly for tourist keris. And of course, the blade itself. I would contend however that there is more than meets the eye with this blade. It is not a "bad" keris in the normal sense of the word IMO. It has clearly got some age to it and has been well cared for in the normal way. The unusual aspects of this keris include the ganja iras and the curious "pitting" effect of one type of metal on the blade paticularly around the dapur area. You must also understand that traditionally, ganja iras was neither common nor undesirable. Real, old keris ganja iras are quite rare although certainly not impossible to find and were considered to have special magickal properites. It is not just a "cheap shortcut" way of making a blade. You must realise of course that I am not "defending" this blade on aesthetic grounds, though to an extent it does have that certain something that nice old blades can have when they're well looked after. What I am against is the notion that just because, to our Western eye this keris is not up to the standard of the dress, that this was necessarily so for the Balinese.

16th February 2005, 04:19 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you all for help! DAHenkel, your concrete and complex replies are very helpful. Writing about curious "pitting" effect you mean probably - let's call it - visible "ironmoulds". Maybe I'll try to post another picture of the other side of the blade, there, as you will see, this "pittings" are almost regular. Well, I don't think these are real corosion ironmoulds, do you think it's made with acid, any other ideas ?? And returning to my questions form the beginning of this thread. The hilt is very thick, that can barely fit to my hand. Are all the balinese hilts of this type so thick ? It's very uncomfortable, even if it was used only for representation purposes. Thank you in advance!

17th February 2005, 10:04 PM	#6
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Gee, Wolviex I keep admiring how these nice Malay pieces come out of the Polish museums, I think I solved the mistery ... hmm I am wondering if some sort of Przewalski guy from your hometown fall for some Balinese erotic dancer and when she run away he got mad and try to find some local stuff to beat the crap out of her and then the European in him brought it all back to Polska ... lol , forgive me I got carried away by envy ...

17th February 2005, 10:46 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Wolviex: I refrain from commenting on keris because I am most ignorant with respect to these weapons. But that's a very interesting pattern you show on the blade. It reminds me of the "ladder" effect seen on some Indo-Persian wootz blades. Do you think the blade pattern here is caused by a similar forging process? Ian.