Arms room Grand Palace Bangkok

Ian · 5th December 2004, 03:47 PM

Dan:

Again, we who have difficulty getting to mainland SE Asia are indebted to you for yet another excellent photo essay on our favorite sword genre. You continue to move us forward in the quest for new knowledge and insight.

I wonder if there may not be some areas of mutual interest to explore with a couple of the institutions that you visited. For example, the sad condition of many of these swords does not reflect the true state of the arms, or glory of the periods they represent. I'm wondering if these museums might let a few foreigners assist them in restoring some representative examples, so that the Thai people might better appreciate their heritage. In return we could learn a lot and obtain the pictures we seek.

After all, many of us have been lavishing loving care on our own examples for years, and we probably know as much about restoring and repairing these swords as many "experts" -- worth asking?

Ian.

Adni Aljunied · 5th December 2004, 04:52 PM

Wow! Am sure going to make some time to this place soon.
Am truly surpirse to see the badeks being associated with the Thais. From the pics the top half sure looks Bugis, with the "pitol grip" like handle, and one is clearly a sewah, with the typical handle and blade with a "ferrule" made one with the blade. But the bottom half are a lot more golok or "pisau" (Knife) looking.
Sadly the keris pictures are not that good, and althoguh there are a few Bugis pieces, they seems not to have a typical Bugis handle, only from the sheath we see the Bugis feature. The ones at the top appears longer, but surely not Bugis, and has more Javanese looking sheaths, but if the length is more than 2 feet, than they cud be Balinese, but then again the fittings and especially the handle is not Balinese.
Biggest surprise is not to see either a Tajong or a Coteng!!! Maybe you did not took any pictures??
Very interesting indeed, and wish I have the time to go there in the near future, but have a trip planned elsewhere already.
Thanks Khun Deng for the splendid infos, and wish the photos are more clearer, but nonetheless, you and the wife did a good "007" job taking it.

ariel · 5th December 2004, 05:00 PM

I visited the Royal Palace and this museum about 5 years ago. Tremendous number of interesting swords but total lack of any academic information (unlike, say, Topkapi) and absolutely appalling condition. Virtually all exponates are exibited "in the open", and some are stored in flimsy glass cages. The doors to the exhibition rooms lead straight outside and are wide open; there is no climate control and the heat/humidity are unbearable. It was a mystery to me how these blades still retained their form and not disintegrated into small piles of rust. Most blades were covered with dark-brown or reddish layers of rust and the wooden/ivory handles had nasty-looking stains on them. It was sad to look at and very difficult to understand why didn't the Royal family take better care of the national heritage.....

Radu Transylvanicus · 5th December 2004, 06:27 PM

Ariel, with the risk of being ,,avocatus diaboli,, that is exactly one of the best reasons why I am not so pro-restitution from Euro-American museums, I had serious conflicts in our own museums debating over ,,wall,, or ,,case,, display or restoration detail and I accused my own execs of carelesness over such but those seem ,,snobish,, minor things when looking at this, in a place of such importance , true national armorial tresure, it enrages me the preservation ignorance of major historical artifacts specially when they have an edge or a barrel... it might even be better for the sake of preservation to go in private collections ...

Since efforts of preservation here looks more like going fishing with dynamite in a coral reef maybe ,,Ocean 13,, wouldnt be a bad idea ? ...

wolviex · 5th December 2004, 06:47 PM

Beautiful exposition, but the condition of the objects is indeed gruesome. I work in Museum, I really do understand financial problems of some museums, where everything, even paper to write a letter (not mention about pencils) you must buy by yourself, becouse of lack of money - but even then there is no chance to display object which is rusty. And here we can see a truly kingdom of rust! UNBELIEVABLE!!! Somebody should made serious intervention there before it's too late!!
It doesn't mean there are no rusty object in my museum - I admit, but they're waiting for conservation in refuge of magazines.

Mark · 5th December 2004, 10:52 PM

Great pictures, Dan. The number of blades there is just amazing.

I, too, am of course appalled at their condition. I imagine climate control in Bangkok is not an easy proposition, however. Still, I image that the royal family has sufficient funds to at least do something. Perhaps we can be the catalyst? Who knows? We just need to push ahead with our research, cultivate the contacts you have made, and show them that we are sincere. Hopefully there will be a chnage in attitude.

Andrew · 6th December 2004, 02:02 AM

Wow.

Dan, thank you so much for sharing this with us. I'm blown away by the number of swords there. The condition doesn't excite me, but those photos certainly do.

With nearly every post you make, I'm more and more grateful for your work, and simultaneously frustrated by my personal lack of time.

You rock!

Best,
Andrew

VANDOO · 6th December 2004, 05:10 AM

IT IS TRULY SAD TO SEE SUCH A LARGE AND IMPORTANT COLLECTION IN SUCH POOR CONDITION. THE WAY FOR THEM TO GO WITH THEIR MUSEUM IS TO FIND A PROFESSIONAL CONSERVATOR AND HAVE HIM OR HIS TEAM WORK ON THE MOST IMPORTANT EXAMPLES AND ALSO TEACH SOME OF THE LOCALS HOW TO RESTORE, PRESERVE AND CARE FOR THE COLLECTION. AS LABOR IS CHEAP IN THAILAND THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO HIRE A CREW OF THOSE TRAINED TO GET ALL THEIR SWORDS IN ACCEPTABLE CONDITION. AFTER EVERYTHING IS IN STABLE AND CLEAN CONDITION A SMALLER CREW COULD KEEP THE COLLECTION IN GOOD SHAPE. THE OTHERS MIGHT FIND WORK IN OTHER MUSEUMS IN THE SAME SHAPE AS THIS ONE PRESENTLY IS.

CONSERVATORS ARE EXPENSIVE HERE AND THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH MONEY AVAILABLE TO DO ALL THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE SO MOST THINGS HAVE TO BE PUT OFF. WHAT GETS TAKEN CARE OF ALSO DEPENDS ON THE INTRESTS OF THE CURRENT HEAD CURATOR. THE MUSEUM IN THAILAND APPEARS TO BE OF THE OLD STYLE ( JUST GET A LOT OF STUFF AND DISPLAY IT AND THEN LET IT STAY THAT WAY FOREVER WITH NO CONSERVATION). THAILAND IS A BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY AND I LIKE THE PEOPLE AND THEIR WAY OF LIFE SO IT IS A SHAME TO SEE SUCH A IMPORTANT ESTABLISHMENT AS THIS MUSEUM SO SADLY NEGLECTED.
THE PICTURES DO SERVE TO SEE MORE EXAMPLES OF DHA AND THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE OTHER WEAPONS THERE IS GOOD. YOU HAVE ADDED MORE TO THE POOL OF KNOWLEGE HERE AND PERHAPS WORD MAY GET BACK TO THE MUSEUM OR SOMEONE WITH DEEP POCKETS AND DHA FEVER MAY HELP THE MUSEUM OUT OR STIR THEM UP TO FIX IT. WAY TO GO!!

5th December 2004, 03:47 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Fine work Dan ... Dan: Again, we who have difficulty getting to mainland SE Asia are indebted to you for yet another excellent photo essay on our favorite sword genre. You continue to move us forward in the quest for new knowledge and insight. I wonder if there may not be some areas of mutual interest to explore with a couple of the institutions that you visited. For example, the sad condition of many of these swords does not reflect the true state of the arms, or glory of the periods they represent. I'm wondering if these museums might let a few foreigners assist them in restoring some representative examples, so that the Thai people might better appreciate their heritage. In return we could learn a lot and obtain the pictures we seek. After all, many of us have been lavishing loving care on our own examples for years, and we probably know as much about restoring and repairing these swords as many "experts" -- worth asking? Ian.

5th December 2004, 06:27 PM	#4
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Ariel, with the risk of being ,,avocatus diaboli,, that is exactly one of the best reasons why I am not so pro-restitution from Euro-American museums, I had serious conflicts in our own museums debating over ,,wall,, or ,,case,, display or restoration detail and I accused my own execs of carelesness over such but those seem ,,snobish,, minor things when looking at this, in a place of such importance , true national armorial tresure, it enrages me the preservation ignorance of major historical artifacts specially when they have an edge or a barrel... it might even be better for the sake of preservation to go in private collections ... Since efforts of preservation here looks more like going fishing with dynamite in a coral reef maybe ,,Ocean 13,, wouldnt be a bad idea ? ... Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 5th December 2004 at 06:39 PM.

5th December 2004, 06:47 PM	#5
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Kingdom of rust Beautiful exposition, but the condition of the objects is indeed gruesome. I work in Museum, I really do understand financial problems of some museums, where everything, even paper to write a letter (not mention about pencils) you must buy by yourself, becouse of lack of money - but even then there is no chance to display object which is rusty. And here we can see a truly kingdom of rust! UNBELIEVABLE!!! Somebody should made serious intervention there before it's too late!! It doesn't mean there are no rusty object in my museum - I admit, but they're waiting for conservation in refuge of magazines.

5th December 2004, 04:52 PM	#2
Adni Aljunied Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: singapore Posts: 13	Wow! Am sure going to make some time to this place soon. Am truly surpirse to see the badeks being associated with the Thais. From the pics the top half sure looks Bugis, with the "pitol grip" like handle, and one is clearly a sewah, with the typical handle and blade with a "ferrule" made one with the blade. But the bottom half are a lot more golok or "pisau" (Knife) looking. Sadly the keris pictures are not that good, and althoguh there are a few Bugis pieces, they seems not to have a typical Bugis handle, only from the sheath we see the Bugis feature. The ones at the top appears longer, but surely not Bugis, and has more Javanese looking sheaths, but if the length is more than 2 feet, than they cud be Balinese, but then again the fittings and especially the handle is not Balinese. Biggest surprise is not to see either a Tajong or a Coteng!!! Maybe you did not took any pictures?? Very interesting indeed, and wish I have the time to go there in the near future, but have a trip planned elsewhere already. Thanks Khun Deng for the splendid infos, and wish the photos are more clearer, but nonetheless, you and the wife did a good "007" job taking it.

5th December 2004, 05:00 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I visited the Royal Palace and this museum about 5 years ago. Tremendous number of interesting swords but total lack of any academic information (unlike, say, Topkapi) and absolutely appalling condition. Virtually all exponates are exibited "in the open", and some are stored in flimsy glass cages. The doors to the exhibition rooms lead straight outside and are wide open; there is no climate control and the heat/humidity are unbearable. It was a mystery to me how these blades still retained their form and not disintegrated into small piles of rust. Most blades were covered with dark-brown or reddish layers of rust and the wooden/ivory handles had nasty-looking stains on them. It was sad to look at and very difficult to understand why didn't the Royal family take better care of the national heritage.....

5th December 2004, 10:52 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Great pictures, Dan. The number of blades there is just amazing. I, too, am of course appalled at their condition. I imagine climate control in Bangkok is not an easy proposition, however. Still, I image that the royal family has sufficient funds to at least do something. Perhaps we can be the catalyst? Who knows? We just need to push ahead with our research, cultivate the contacts you have made, and show them that we are sincere. Hopefully there will be a chnage in attitude.

6th December 2004, 02:02 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Wow. Dan, thank you so much for sharing this with us. I'm blown away by the number of swords there. The condition doesn't excite me, but those photos certainly do. With nearly every post you make, I'm more and more grateful for your work, and simultaneously frustrated by my personal lack of time. You rock! Best, Andrew

6th December 2004, 05:10 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT IS TRULY SAD TO SEE SUCH A LARGE AND IMPORTANT COLLECTION IN SUCH POOR CONDITION. THE WAY FOR THEM TO GO WITH THEIR MUSEUM IS TO FIND A PROFESSIONAL CONSERVATOR AND HAVE HIM OR HIS TEAM WORK ON THE MOST IMPORTANT EXAMPLES AND ALSO TEACH SOME OF THE LOCALS HOW TO RESTORE, PRESERVE AND CARE FOR THE COLLECTION. AS LABOR IS CHEAP IN THAILAND THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO HIRE A CREW OF THOSE TRAINED TO GET ALL THEIR SWORDS IN ACCEPTABLE CONDITION. AFTER EVERYTHING IS IN STABLE AND CLEAN CONDITION A SMALLER CREW COULD KEEP THE COLLECTION IN GOOD SHAPE. THE OTHERS MIGHT FIND WORK IN OTHER MUSEUMS IN THE SAME SHAPE AS THIS ONE PRESENTLY IS. CONSERVATORS ARE EXPENSIVE HERE AND THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH MONEY AVAILABLE TO DO ALL THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE SO MOST THINGS HAVE TO BE PUT OFF. WHAT GETS TAKEN CARE OF ALSO DEPENDS ON THE INTRESTS OF THE CURRENT HEAD CURATOR. THE MUSEUM IN THAILAND APPEARS TO BE OF THE OLD STYLE ( JUST GET A LOT OF STUFF AND DISPLAY IT AND THEN LET IT STAY THAT WAY FOREVER WITH NO CONSERVATION). THAILAND IS A BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY AND I LIKE THE PEOPLE AND THEIR WAY OF LIFE SO IT IS A SHAME TO SEE SUCH A IMPORTANT ESTABLISHMENT AS THIS MUSEUM SO SADLY NEGLECTED. THE PICTURES DO SERVE TO SEE MORE EXAMPLES OF DHA AND THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE OTHER WEAPONS THERE IS GOOD. YOU HAVE ADDED MORE TO THE POOL OF KNOWLEGE HERE AND PERHAPS WORD MAY GET BACK TO THE MUSEUM OR SOMEONE WITH DEEP POCKETS AND DHA FEVER MAY HELP THE MUSEUM OUT OR STIR THEM UP TO FIX IT. WAY TO GO!!