Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

Jim McDougall · 15th February 2005, 04:14 AM

Hi Jeff,
It's always good to see you come in, and I especially like your 'nickel's worth comment !

As Jeff has noticed, my placing the Stone quote was intended to illustrate the early use of terminology as pertains to 'meteoric'. I thought the reference to Krupps as a source for nickel in later blades was an interesting note to the importance of the nickel in achieving certain blade pamor aesthetically(perhaps I should have noted that specifically

Whenever Stone is used as a reference in discussion, most of us recognize that this is an venerable work that is typically considered in its context, as benchmark material that has in many cases, been superceded.
The material found in Stone presents interesting perspective as earlier research that can offer clues to continuing investigations. For example, as in the case of geneological research, it is typically necessary to rely on early and outdated maps, charts and historical data to seek information within key locations as counties, townships and cities have changed names, thus one cannot find information under the current names.

It is similarly sometimes important to know what theories, beliefs and material were regarded in references in contemporary times. This is why early narratives are considered so important in weapons research, contemporary observations.

I think it is extremely important to respect the work of the early authors and qualify data that has since been found incorrect (which has been done here with Nechesh's notes, thus achieving exactly that).

It is interesting to note from the foreward in the venerable volume we all know simply as 'Stone':
"...I am fully aware that this book is far from complete or perfect, but I trust that it may be an incentive to someone better qualified than I to write another on similar lines that will give more accurate information".
-George Cameron Stone, 1934

So here we all are, trying to do just that, and grateful to Mr. Stone for showing us the direction to follow.

All best regards,
Jim

rasdan · 15th February 2005, 09:12 AM

Hi guys,

This is quite different form the discussion. I was just wondering, is there danger of emmision of dangerous gasses or other substance during forging a meteorite? Some meteorites contain xenon etc. I dont know this is dangerous or not. However, I heard one guy fainted and was admitted to the hospital while trying melting a meteorite. The exact cause i dont know. Curently i have a nickel-iron metorite from Nantan, China and i'm thinking of making a keris from it. Any comment?

nechesh · 15th February 2005, 11:48 AM

Jim, you are, of course, right about the importance of early work, however flawed, in aiding our continued research on the subject. Perhaps you noted that i started my comment on your posted quote "With all due respect to Stone" and that was indeed a sincere remark.
It is interesting to note that the certain blade pamor aesthetic that the import of nickel was trying to achieve seems to have been a European one, not a traditional one. Groneman, for instance, was trying to reproduce the higher nickel pamor effect of meteorite when he imported nickel for keris production, a look that was to his taste.
Rasdan, nice to see you are back from holiday. I will be sending you a message soon. At least if you do make a keris from your meteorite that will be one example we can be sure of.

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2005, 02:27 PM

Hi rasdan,

Will you have the meteor analysed before you take the decision?
If you do please let us know what different metals it consists of, I am sure many will be interested in knowing.

Jens

fearn · 15th February 2005, 02:50 PM

Jens, you beat me to it!

Yes, Rasdan, by all means, have some sort of chemical analysis done. It's for more than our curiosity--it might also be useful to the empu who does the work, to know what's in the meteorite you bring him before he starts working on it. It will be interesting to see how the pamor develops in such a blade.

Nechesh, thanks for discussing Prof. Piakowski's work. Now, if some chemist in the group will explain how arsenic binds differentially to phosphorus to produce the light and dark pamor bands, I'll be happy

Fearn

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2005, 08:31 PM

I must say that I had started to wonder why this question was not asked, but maybe it has something to do with different time zones. But who asks the questions if of no difference, the interesting thing is to get the answers.

Jens

BSMStar · 15th February 2005, 08:40 PM

Rasdan,

I believe the Nantan has already been analyzed.

www.greatwallct.com/nantan.htm

The average Chemical composition in the Nantan meteorites are: Fe 92.35%, Ni 6.96%, belonging to IIICD type of iron meteorite based on the taxonomy of Wasson and others (1980). The following trace elements have been detected: C, Cu, Co, S, P, Cr, Ga, Ge, As, Sb, W, Re, Ir, Au, Ru, Pd, Os, Pr, and Mn. Ag, Cd, and Pb isotopes have been analyzed by Prof. Wang Daode and others (1993). http://www.pgrgem.com/color/datasheets/pgrmold.html

You may find more info surfing the net... but it looks like this meteorite may be a poor choice due to weathering.

fearn,

I'm going out on a limb here... so correct me if I am wrong. Realgar and Orpiment are an Arsenic Sulfide. In an acidic environment, the sulfur is released and bonds to the iron creating an Iron Sulfide (the brownish black color that is difficult to reproduce). Phosphorus will react to make a Phosphorus Sulfide, which is a pale yellow in color.

Here are some interesting links

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...readid=4873&s=
http://www.sanztrust.org.nz/archives/knife.html
http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/Howto.htm

BMStar

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2005, 10:07 PM

BSMStar, this is most interesting, although you loose me when you ask fearn the question about arsenic.
So you did know about analyze.
Maybe we need an explanation for the most common metals – what is Fe and so on, I am sure that not all can follow – maybe a sticky – what about it Andrew, I hope you are ‘listening’.

Jens

15th February 2005, 08:31 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I must say that I had started to wonder why this question was not asked, but maybe it has something to do with different time zones. But who asks the questions if of no difference, the interesting thing is to get the answers. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 16th February 2005 at 10:47 AM.

15th February 2005, 04:14 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	Hi Jeff, It's always good to see you come in, and I especially like your 'nickel's worth comment ! As Jeff has noticed, my placing the Stone quote was intended to illustrate the early use of terminology as pertains to 'meteoric'. I thought the reference to Krupps as a source for nickel in later blades was an interesting note to the importance of the nickel in achieving certain blade pamor aesthetically(perhaps I should have noted that specifically Whenever Stone is used as a reference in discussion, most of us recognize that this is an venerable work that is typically considered in its context, as benchmark material that has in many cases, been superceded. The material found in Stone presents interesting perspective as earlier research that can offer clues to continuing investigations. For example, as in the case of geneological research, it is typically necessary to rely on early and outdated maps, charts and historical data to seek information within key locations as counties, townships and cities have changed names, thus one cannot find information under the current names. It is similarly sometimes important to know what theories, beliefs and material were regarded in references in contemporary times. This is why early narratives are considered so important in weapons research, contemporary observations. I think it is extremely important to respect the work of the early authors and qualify data that has since been found incorrect (which has been done here with Nechesh's notes, thus achieving exactly that). It is interesting to note from the foreward in the venerable volume we all know simply as 'Stone': "...I am fully aware that this book is far from complete or perfect, but I trust that it may be an incentive to someone better qualified than I to write another on similar lines that will give more accurate information". -George Cameron Stone, 1934 So here we all are, trying to do just that, and grateful to Mr. Stone for showing us the direction to follow. All best regards, Jim

15th February 2005, 09:12 AM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi guys, This is quite different form the discussion. I was just wondering, is there danger of emmision of dangerous gasses or other substance during forging a meteorite? Some meteorites contain xenon etc. I dont know this is dangerous or not. However, I heard one guy fainted and was admitted to the hospital while trying melting a meteorite. The exact cause i dont know. Curently i have a nickel-iron metorite from Nantan, China and i'm thinking of making a keris from it. Any comment?

15th February 2005, 11:48 AM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Jim, you are, of course, right about the importance of early work, however flawed, in aiding our continued research on the subject. Perhaps you noted that i started my comment on your posted quote "With all due respect to Stone" and that was indeed a sincere remark. It is interesting to note that the certain blade pamor aesthetic that the import of nickel was trying to achieve seems to have been a European one, not a traditional one. Groneman, for instance, was trying to reproduce the higher nickel pamor effect of meteorite when he imported nickel for keris production, a look that was to his taste. Rasdan, nice to see you are back from holiday. I will be sending you a message soon. At least if you do make a keris from your meteorite that will be one example we can be sure of.

15th February 2005, 02:27 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi rasdan, Will you have the meteor analysed before you take the decision? If you do please let us know what different metals it consists of, I am sure many will be interested in knowing. Jens

15th February 2005, 02:50 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Jens, you beat me to it! Yes, Rasdan, by all means, have some sort of chemical analysis done. It's for more than our curiosity--it might also be useful to the empu who does the work, to know what's in the meteorite you bring him before he starts working on it. It will be interesting to see how the pamor develops in such a blade. Nechesh, thanks for discussing Prof. Piakowski's work. Now, if some chemist in the group will explain how arsenic binds differentially to phosphorus to produce the light and dark pamor bands, I'll be happy Fearn

15th February 2005, 08:40 PM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Rasdan, I believe the Nantan has already been analyzed. www.greatwallct.com/nantan.htm The average Chemical composition in the Nantan meteorites are: Fe 92.35%, Ni 6.96%, belonging to IIICD type of iron meteorite based on the taxonomy of Wasson and others (1980). The following trace elements have been detected: C, Cu, Co, S, P, Cr, Ga, Ge, As, Sb, W, Re, Ir, Au, Ru, Pd, Os, Pr, and Mn. Ag, Cd, and Pb isotopes have been analyzed by Prof. Wang Daode and others (1993). http://www.pgrgem.com/color/datasheets/pgrmold.html You may find more info surfing the net... but it looks like this meteorite may be a poor choice due to weathering. fearn, I'm going out on a limb here... so correct me if I am wrong. Realgar and Orpiment are an Arsenic Sulfide. In an acidic environment, the sulfur is released and bonds to the iron creating an Iron Sulfide (the brownish black color that is difficult to reproduce). Phosphorus will react to make a Phosphorus Sulfide, which is a pale yellow in color. Here are some interesting links http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...readid=4873&s= http://www.sanztrust.org.nz/archives/knife.html http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/Howto.htm BMStar

15th February 2005, 10:07 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	BSMStar, this is most interesting, although you loose me when you ask fearn the question about arsenic. So you did know about analyze. Maybe we need an explanation for the most common metals – what is Fe and so on, I am sure that not all can follow – maybe a sticky – what about it Andrew, I hope you are ‘listening’. Jens