Ganja !

[Rick]

So if it's a construction feature as you suggest Lew; what did it accomplish for the keris ?

Michael, was it physical construction (your answer 2) that morphed from the initial practical application into the metaphysical over time?

Or visa versa; constructed initially and for the purpose of expressing these metaphysical attributes?

[Henk]

I also vote for .3 the spiritual option.

When the pesi of the keris is broken, the keris is damaged and for the believers in the spiritual powers of keris such a keris has become even an unpredictable and dangerous object.
A ganja with a small hole that shows the pesi, called a "lotus cup" is pouring good luck over the owner of the keris. When the ganja has two lotus cups, one at each side the luck is pouring out double.
I think Michael is in the right corner.

A ganja is of course in my opinion a construction technique with a purpose, brought up by man, but what purpose? That's the question. Very nice discussion.

[A. G. Maisey]

I apologise for not playing the vote game.

For me to cast a vote, I would have to have an opinion, and I currently do not have a single firm opinion that I am prepared to defend.

I offer the following thoughts that may---or may not---be worthy of consideration.

1---at Prambanan the dagger which may be considered as an ancestor of the keris clearly shows a gonjo.This dagger is held with the pommel facing skywards, thus the wider section provided by the fitting of a gonjo has a gaurd-like effect in cushioning the heel of the hand in delivering a strike.

2---again at Prambanan the dagger which resembles a keris buda has the same feature of a gonjo.

3---observe the keris which is gonjo iras:- the sorsoran is seldom wide, the buntut urang is seldom substantial, evidence of forging difficulty is often found in the wadidang. My personal experience in forging a keris blade has been that it is quite difficult to forge out the wadidang and at the same time maintain adequate thickness.

4---the spiritual beliefs associated with the keris have developed over a very extended period. I believe it would be extraordinarily difficult to demonstrate the existence of any of these beliefs being attached to a dagger of an essentially Indian type, shown in Javanese reliefs of circa 900AD, but that is where we first see the gonjo.

5---the word "ganja" ( a note on spelling:- ganja is properly written with a dot over the "a"'s, and is pronounced "gonjo"; I prefer to write the word "gonjo" because that is how it is pronounced, and probably how most people in Central Jawa would write it)---to repeat, the word "ganja" is found in Old Javanese, but it appears not to be associated with any root word in Sanscrit , or Malay, or any other language. It appears not to be associated with any other word, in any other language, or with any other idea. At the present time I think we can assume it is a stand alone word with a single purpose:- to describe this part of the keris. I have made enquiries in respect of possible associations of this word, but although the people I have approached are at the top of their fields in Old Javanese, and in comparative linguistics, I have not yet had very enlightening responses from them. I personally feel that the way forward in solution of this question is to identify the root of the word. It may be from an Indian language, it may be original Javanese, but if it is original Javanese, it is a little strange that no associations can be tracked with other Old Javanese words.

It would not surprise me if at some time in the future we discover that the word "gonjo" derives from some archaic dialect of the Indian Sub-Continent, and carries the sense of "gaurd", or "pillow", or "support" or something similar.

Once we have a sense of meaning to the word, we can perhaps assume a reason for its original existence. In the mean time, consider how very painful it might be to recieve the full force of a strike on either the heel of the hand, or the first joint of the index finger, if the piece of metal against which that part of the body rested was narrow. Again consider the difficulties involved in forging and carving a blade with a thick, assymetric base , and a light, thin body to the rest of the blade.

As I said:- I have no opinions, only questions.

[VVV]

I googled on ganja and Sanskrit online dictionaries.
I think most of you could guess the most found translation.
But there is another meaning also:

ganja [ gañga ] m. or n. (?) treasury: -na, a. sur passing (--&degree); -vara, m. treasurer.

For me the description treasury, in this case, implies something not related to construction or physical matters...

Michael

[Rick]

If the ganja is a device to widen the sorsoran why have it seperate ?
Why not just make the ganja, fit it over the pesi and weld it into one piece with the rest of the blade?

Wouldn't this be an easier task than making it fit precisely to the wilah?

[A. G. Maisey]

Michael, I did not use an online dictionary, I used the hard copy Macdonell dictionary, when I came up empty there I posed questions to the author of an Old Javanese dictionary, and a professor of comparative linguistics. I have also put the question to a teacher of Sanscrit and Indian culture who used to teach at an Indian university, but who now lives in Canada.
I still have no answer.

I do not think that it is valid to transpose "j" and "g".To get a definite answer on that it is possibly necessary to go back to the original characters.

Is it possible that three academics could all be wrong, two of whom are probably the most renowned in their respective fields?

Yes, I guess it is, but if you could come up with the answer so easily and quickly, it causes me to ask why these other gentlemen could not, and also why I cannot locate the word in Macdonell .

If we go to "ganga" in Old Javanese, we get a direct Sanscrit link to river, which is synonymous with a goddess and with water. Ganga, gangga is one sound and idea, ganja, gonjo is a different sound and idea.

Michael, could you provide a link to the dictionary you quote, please?


Rick, to follow the method of construction that you suggest would be very, very difficult. Don't forget, we are fire welding, not gas welding or electric welding, What you propose would require precise fitting to an unfinished forging, then the taking of a weld where there is a long protrusion---the future pesi---sticking into the air in the middle of the weld area. I would not like to try this. It could possibly be done, but even with modern technology and a high degree of skill, it would not be easy.

These people were working with a fire in a depression in the ground, and weld heat was obtained with what was in effect feather dusters working up and down in hollow logs.The fuel was charcoal. What you can get with this technology is a very small spot in the fire where you can weld.

Incidentally, in Hindu belief, "ganga" refers to the Ganges River specifically, which flows from the toe of Vishnu. There is a whole story attached to this, which does not belong here. When the river is represented by a goddess, she is the eldest daughter of Himavat and Mena, and became the wife of King Santanu. Ganga, or Ganges has a number of other names and titles, but none seem to relate to the object that we are talking about here.

Actually, I would very much like to be able to demonstrate that "ganja", or "gonjo" is equivalent to "ganja", because if we could do this we could construct the fire/water/ earth trilogy into the keris and date that symbolism from pre-Mataram, with would synch very conveniently with the agrarian culture of Mojopahit, Mataram and before. However--- if academic knowledge cannot support the foundation, I'm simply not brave enough to take that leap.

[VVV]

Alan,

I found these two links.
When I did my first search I also found a third link before I quit the search that also referred to river Ganga as a second alternative. I had to filter several cannabis related sites...

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/rom...able=macdonell

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=135...3E2.0.CO%3B2-Q

Michael

[VVV]

Originally Posted by Rick

So if it's a construction feature as you suggest Lew; what did it accomplish for the keris ?

Michael, was it physical construction (your answer 2) that morphed from the initial practical application into the metaphysical over time?

Or visa versa; constructed initially and for the purpose of expressing these metaphysical attributes?

Sorry Rick,

I first noticed you question to me now.
I think/speculate that it is the metaphysical alternative.
For some reason most of the symbolism and talismanic features on a Keris is concentrated on the ganja?
I neither think there is any construction reason for the greneng, lambe gaja etc?
Why isn't a ganja something developed in other cultures if it has a practical purpose?
When I practice martial arts I sometimes use cheap, one piece aluminium practice daggers, without ganja or guard, and thrust them full force into tree trunks with all kind of grips. This to strenghten my grip and practice impact and striking angles. I don't need any built in cushion or protection for this?
But if I would ever use a blade in a life and death situation I would use all the metaphysical help I could think of.
The more, the better, in case I didn't know which talismanic symbol that really worked according to my beliefs.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Michael, what you say about the way in which words change when they move from one place to another is very true, that is the reason that I mentioned that perhaps we are not looking for ganja/gonjo at all. However, when we look at Old Javanese, what we find is that a lot of words have moved through into Old Javanese, and Kawi, virtually unchanged from what they were in Sanscrit.

This change is not only apparent when words move from one language to another, but in the same language, over time.

Do not forget that people with one set of language skills may not be able to produce the sounds of another language. For instance, in Australia's colonial days the English word "bullock" was rendered by Australian aboriginals as "bolong". I'm sure we can all come up many examples of this type of thing.Look at the name of the thing we are discussing. Because of the restrictions of the modern English keyboard it gets spelt with "a" 's. If you were not Javanese you would not know that it was really pronounced as if those "a" 's were "o" 's. Things change.Maybe in a hundred years everybody will pronounce "ganja" with "a" for "apple".

Let us not become lost in hypothesis.It would be very easy to do. For instance, in the Nawanatya how is the keris mentioned?
"The keris, a token of manfulness has its place at the front"
Even way back then the keris was recognised in a symbolic sense.
Now, if it is the token of a man, what would be more natural than to give a man's name to it, or to part of it?
In Sanscrit, the words "gungu" and "ganga"(again with a different pronunciation) are masculine names.

But what was the word used for keris at that time in history?
Amongst some other possibilities, it was "twek".

Let's get back and actually look at the thing we are talking about.

Right at the very beginning of its history, long before it assumed the form it has today, long before it became representative of the Cosmic Naga, long before acquired it all of the mystical baggage that is part and parcel of keris belief systems today, right at its birth, we have a graphic representation of it being used to stab downwards, with the pommel pointing at the sky.
Within the same time frame we have other graphic representations of another style of dagger that is the same as the assymetric grandfather of our keris, but this other dagger is symmetrical. It is something quite similar to some Indian daggers, and has a decidedly Indian leaf shaped blade. It is probably not drawing too long a bow to call it a jamdhar katari.

Both these daggers have a feature that is recogniseable as what we would today call a "gonjo".

In Indian and western daggers that are used in the way in which we see these early daggers being used, there is normally found a fairly substantial gaurd that supports the heel of the hand and allows a strike to be delivered with the full force of a hammer blow.

I think it is obvious that the purpose of the "gonjo" in these early daggers was the same as the purpose of a guard in western and Indian daggers:- to support the heel of the hand, and to allow full force to be used with a strike.

Over time and for a number of reasons, the shape of the keris changed, and the way in which it was used changed. I doubt that this happened in a rush, and if we look at the transitional keris that bridge the gap between the keris buda, and the modern keris, what we can see is a blade that could be used to strike down, as with the early daggers shown at Prambanan, or to thrust as with a rapier.I think we can probably assume that for a time the dagger which eventually became the keris as we know it, was used to both stab---a la Prambanan--- and to thrust.
The design of the blade was already established, and methods of use followed the blade form, thus, the "gonjo" that had served as a support for the heel of the hand, now became a support for the index finger.
In short, the existing design was satisfactory, so it underwent minimal alteration.
Probably by the time of the appearance of the modern keris, the keris had already assumed some symbolic value, and we all know that nobody in their right mind fools around with symbols too much. Thus, the gonjo was here to stay.

Ok, so you got a keris, you gotta have a gonjo. Tradition dictates that there just ain't no keris without a gonjo. Take the gonjo away:- you don't got a keris no more.

The method of making a keris was already well established, and was a product of the original lineage of the keris, as well as the available technology.Thus, by this time in the history of the keris, if you wanted a keris, it had to have a gonjo, and that gonjo was produced and fitted in a particular way.

I am convinced that what I have written above is probably a fairly accurate depictation of the origin of the gonjo on a keris, and the reason we still have it on a keris today.

But there is still that question that has not been answered, and that I have been trying to answer for more years than I care to remember:-

what is the origin and meaning of the the word "gonjo/ganja".

To me, that is the big question.

Why?

Because if it can be fixed to a meaning such as "gaurd", or "support" or similar, and if we can fix a date to its use with this sense, we can say:--OKlah, at this point in history it is probable that the keris was still regarded in Jawa as having primarily a weapon nature.

But---if we can fix a meaning to "gonjo" that carries some esoteric sense, or even symbolic sense, and we can place that usage and sense in a time frame, we can say:- at around such and such a point in time, in Jawa, the keris had already assumed such and such a role in society.

This question that Rick has asked is not just some simple little light weight curiosity that that can be settled by application of present day silat styles, or present day philosophical beliefs, or present day collector's desires. This is one of the really big questions associated with the keris, and it goes right to the heart of the history and development of the keris.

This is an important question, and we do not yet have nearly sufficient information or knowledge to be able to form opinions. At least, I do not.

What was the meaning and origin of the word "gonjo/ganja", and when was it first used?

Answer that and you have made a giant leap forward in keris knowledge.

[David]

A very interesting discussion so far. Like Alan i have chosen not to vote on this issue. Though i do suspect that the gonjo originally had a practical reason, new evidience could prove otherwise.
I would like to bring up the realated question of gonjo iras blades. Clearly there are rather old keris sajen that have this feature, though these blades 1) Don't have a very much length or thickness at the "gonjo" and 2) Were made for talismanic use so that thickness at the gonjo to absorb shock of the strike was not a a concern.
In previous discussions i have had with Alan i came away with the understanding that non-sajen gonjo iras blades don't seem to appear until somewhere around the 16th century (is that correct?). I wonder if by this time spiritual attribution had been assigned to various aspects of the blade. I have an early 19thC gonjo iras blade in my collection. I would assume that these spiritual applications would probably have been incorporated into the culture by then. So i wonder what this might mean in terms of these spiritual concepts of this part of the blade to the owner of a gonjo iras blade. Why would he want to have such a blade? In discussions i have had with Alan i came away with the impression that gonjo iras blades were probably made this way as a cost cutting method, but i am having difficulty reconciling this reason with the understanding that the seperate gonjo did indeed come to be an important mystical component of the keris. Certainly i have seen a number of low end keris with this feature (which is on the whole rare), but i have also seen a few very well made full ricikan example which don't appear to be cutting costs in their construction. So i must wonder if there is not some other purpose for this feature, perhaps some spiritual component. As i stated, gonjo iras blades are relatively rare, and if it was a cost saving measure i would expect to see more of them.

[A. G. Maisey]

As to exactly when a normal keris that was gonjo iras first appeared, all I can say is that I have never seen a really old one.

16th century?

yeah, maybe---also maybe not.

Further, we seldom see gonjo iras blades from Jawa.South Sumatera, Peninsula---other places,yeah, but I cannot recall ever having seen many from Jawa itself.

Cost cutting would be a reasonable, pragmatic explanation, and looked at logically, completely defensible.

However---I could construct a very elegant esoteric reason for the construction of the gonjo iras blade.Only problem with that is, it would be my construct using 20th century Javanese philosophical arguments. I do not know of anything in any literature older than probably the last quarter of the 19th century that I could call on to support my esoteric construct.

The simple fact of the matter is this:-

making up a story to explain anything is very easy;

believing things that make one feel comfortable is also very easy;

inventing reasons that are in accord with one's personal beliefs, or what one wants to believe others have believed in the past is very easy;

what is not at all easy is to find hard evidence, or to build a logical argument based on indirect evidence, that will give strong support to a position.

If for argument's sake,sufficient people hold the belief that the gonjo iras form was specifically designed to represent a perfect union of the male and the female, and thus has the tuah of strengthening a marriage, which in turn strengthens the community, and leads to both worldly and spiritual wealth, then, for those people who believe this, this is something true and real.Because these people believe this, it will likely have the designated effect for these people.

However--- if we set out to try to find evidence that this was indeed the reason behind the construction of the first examples of this form, we might have a very, very difficult job in front of us.

Never lose sight of the fact that as well as being a royal work of art, a symbol of power, a mystical icon, the keris was also an item of trade that was traded all over SE Asia.

Not all men are equal : not all keris are equal.

What I am saying here is that anybody can believe whatever they wish to believe. That is an individual's right. But if we want evidential proof, or we want a supportive logical argument for that belief---well, that's an entirely different basket of fruit.

[Alam Shah]

Opps! I've took a long break to write my comment and later found Alan Maisey's update. Interesting comments and points.

Some community (outside Java) believed that an enpowered 'ganja iras' blade could circumvent and penetrate an opponent's defences, warrior mystic magic (if any), and thus making the opponent more vulnerable. Perhaps just another story.

I'll need to look-up for info to support this, maybe it's in Skeat's.

[Rick]

Alan, I find this interesting :

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIIcalonan.html

Judging by this picture the gonjo is cut from the blank then and shaped along with the rest of the keris?
Am I correct?

Is all the work after this point cold work ?

[Alam Shah]

I had a feeling that the 'ganja iras' question would pop-up, true enough.
I believe there are quite a few of us here, who do have 'ganja iras' blades. However, the age of these pieces doesn't go back very far. Most are 19th century or later.

David, I agree with points 1) and 2).

From my limited observation, I found ganja iras pieces, more common to Sumatra areas than any other regions.

My 2 examples of a ganja iras blades. Both est. to be 19th century blades.
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p32019280.html
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p32021340.html

Regarding the notion that "gonjo iras blades were probably made this way as a cost cutting method", can this be elaborated why? Because if this is so, then we would be seeing many of this sort of blades.

Originally Posted by David

I wonder if by this time spiritual attribution had been assigned to various aspects of the blade. So i wonder what this might mean in terms of these spiritual concepts of this part of the blade to the owner of a gonjo iras blade. Why would he want to have such a blade?

I wonder too...

Originally Posted by David

...the seperate gonjo did indeed come to be an important mystical component of the keris.

I believe so, too. At least from certain Sumatran, Riau and Peninsular esoteric beliefs. Keris outside Java did evolved and have (and still have) its own interpretation, different from the Javanese belief system.