Review of "Arms and Armour from Iran" by M. Khorasani

[Adrian Ko]

Mr. Rivkin, is it possible that any review or critique of Manouchehr's book by you will be unavoidably baised due to your personal issues with the gentleman?

Having read your past words towards Manouchehr and his publication, and also having reviewed Dr. Ann Feuerbach's treatment on this website, I see not only Manouchehr being attacked but also attempts to undermine the very people who have been supportive of this book. It no longer appears that the motivation is purely intellectual. This behavior has to stop.

I'm here to personally offer an olive branch to you and all to please not let personal differences cloud us and to not allow resentment to taint the views of others. I'm also asking for the kindest consideration that the reconciliation and healing process begin now before it gets worse where people will end up carrying this vitriol to their graves.

[Rivkin]

Is it possible that my opinion is biased ? Ofcoarse. It says so right in the first paragraph of my review, that is why I ask people to "treat this review with a grain of salt".

Concerning Dr. Feuerbach (btw, since we started this, why Mr. Rivkin, but Dr. Feuerbach ?), I am sorry if my statement that her beliefs are her beliefs was offensive. I really do not know how to refrase it, but yes, as I stated many times, there are a lot of different opinions on the subject, and those that are not mine could be wrong or could be right.

I actually objected (and do object) to only a single phrase in her review (which btw does not relate to the book), concerning preservation of the knowledge of antiquity. First of all I do not believe in significant importance of a lot of this knowledge of antiquity for post-renessaince science (were epicycles really helpful ?). Yes, on the other hand one should note the excessive quoting/translation of Aristotel and others by Muslim Philosophers, but it is a very complex question, how much was preserved and how much was destroyed and by whom, and yes I find the recent controversy over "preservation" to be largely politically driven. If Dr. Feuerbach wants to waste her valuable time discussing this with me, I would be honored to, but I am obviously not an expert on this, so I do not know if it is a good idea to argue with me.

Concerning the rest of her review I think I agree with 80%, may be even 90% of what she says. Only she says it in a very polite way, and I say it in a rude way. Well, she is a fine lady and I am a vicious savage.

Concerning your peace offer. Thank you very much. May I ask how do you see this peace ? We stop criticizing Manoucher and Ruel, Ruel downgrades his charge of plagiarism against Tirri to misdimeanor ? I will be honest I have no problem if Manoucher for example comes after stuff I published on this forum. A lot of it (10-20%) is different than what I think today, and a some of it is simply crap.

[Adrian Ko]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Concerning Dr. Feuerbach (btw, since we started this, why Mr. Rivkin, but Dr. Feuerbach ?), I am sorry if my statement that her beliefs are her beliefs was offensive. I really do not know how to refrase it, but yes, as I stated many times, there are a lot of different opinions on the subject, and those that are not mine could be wrong or could be right.

If I am missing your credentials, it is unintentional as I do not know you. Nor is there any mention of a doctorate in your SFI profile. I only know you by your words. So let me proceed by letting the titles go.

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Concerning your peace offer. Thank you very much. May I ask how do you see this peace ? We stop criticizing Manoucher and Ruel, Ruel downgrades his charge of plagiarism against Tirri to misdimeanor ? I will be honest I have no problem if Manoucher for example comes after stuff I published on this forum. A lot of it (10-20%) is different than what I think today, and a some of it is simply crap.

I'm sorry, I missed the meeting where I'm supposed to silence someone for you.

You know, it's this kind of mentality that now I see creates this "us vs. them" and "EAAF vs. SFI". First, you seem to be of the misunderstanding that if you stop criticizing Manoucher and Ruel that I have to somehow silence Ruel. First off, I neither am for or against Ruel as an individual. But that individual has a right to express his viewpoints so long as he can back them up. He has to date provided a reasonable arguementative defense for his beliefs. Whether people accept them or not is up to them. Since I removed the concern of Rivkin from the "Dressed to Kill" thread, things have been civil only up until the point on EAAF member decided to say enough on SFI merit my concerns of inter-forum issues.

(And for the record, I've firmly asked Ruel not bring the issue regarding Tirri up on SFI. He has a valid concern that the level of scrutiny of Tirri's work does not hold a candle to Manoucher's work. Ruel alleges there is almost unquestioned acceptance of Tirri's work even though there are clear echoes of the same errors in Stone's book. He belives certain individuals on EAAF have not answered those concerns publicly while relentlessly assailing Manoucher's book, creating an impression for Ruel there are double standards.)

Let it be noted that for whatever the reason, Ruel was banned from this website. Simply because Ruel now posts on a website that hasn't permanently banned him does not mean that Ruel is "ours" any more than Ruel was "yours." For all the ruckus Ruel has caused me, I don't want him to be "mine". If he posts on NetSword, does that mean he's NetSwords?

Kirill, if you have found it within yourself to say that some of Manoucher's stuff is "simply crap" then it is evident you have a personal vendetta. Is that kind of phrasing necessary? You tell me.

Look, I really don't care to "debate" you because I don't have issue with you on this subject matter. My concern is your vendetta, and that vendetta is politiciziing people against my site because you guys created a monster in Ruel, and now SFI is the enemy because we won't silence a monster you created?

Will you consider making friends with these people instead?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Adrian Ko

If I am missing your credentials, it is unintentional as I do not know you. Nor is there any mention of a doctorate in your SFI profile. I only know you by your words. So let me proceed by letting the titles go.



I'm sorry, I missed the meeting where I'm supposed to silence someone for you.

You know, it's this kind of mentality that now I see creates this "us vs. them" and "EAAF vs. SFI". First, you seem to be of the misunderstanding that if you stop criticizing Manoucher and Ruel that I have to somehow silence Ruel. First off, I neither am for or against Ruel as an individual. But that individual has a right to express his viewpoints so long as he can back them up. He has to date provided a reasonable arguementative defense for his beliefs. Whether people accept them or not is up to them. Since I removed the concern of Rivkin from the "Dressed to Kill" thread, things have been civil only up until the point on EAAF member decided to say enough on SFI merit my concerns of inter-forum issues.

(And for the record, I've firmly asked Ruel not bring the issue regarding Tirri up on SFI. He has a valid concern that the level of scrutiny of Tirri's work does not hold a candle to Manoucher's work. Ruel alleges there is almost unquestioned acceptance of Tirri's work even though there are clear echoes of the same errors in Stone's book. He belives certain individuals on EAAF have not answered those concerns publicly while relentlessly assailing Manoucher's book, creating an impression for Ruel there are double standards.)

Let it be noted that for whatever the reason, Ruel was banned from this website. Simply because Ruel now posts on a website that hasn't permanently banned him does not mean that Ruel is "ours" any more than Ruel was "yours." For all the ruckus Ruel has caused me, I don't want him to be "mine". If he posts on NetSword, does that mean he's NetSwords?

Kirill, if you have found it within yourself to say that some of Manoucher's stuff is "simply crap" then it is evident you have a personal vendetta. Is that kind of phrasing necessary? You tell me.

Look, I really don't care to "debate" you because I don't have issue with you on this subject matter. My concern is your vendetta, and that vendetta is politiciziing people against my site because you guys created a monster in Ruel, and now SFI is the enemy because we won't silence a monster you created?

Will you consider making friends with these people instead?

Nice to see you here, Adrian.

I think Kirill's reference to "crap" was regarding prior posts of his own, not anything Manouchehr has written. Take a look at it again.





To everyone: this thread has nothing to do with Ruel. Don't bring him up again.

I urge everyone to heed Ian and Rick's warnings. We do not want to lock yet another thread on this topic. We will, however, be handing out bans to those unable to discuss this matter objectively.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I urge everyone to heed Ian and Rick's warnings. We do not want to lock yet another thread on this topic. We will, however, be handing out bans to those unable to discuss this matter objectively.

And by "this matter," we mean (a) the book, and (b) the merits/demerits of the review topping this thread. It is possible to discuss the book AND the review without having to put it in terms of the personalities involved. Discussion of, for example, personal history, motivation, or any real or perceived "conflict," is off-topic.

Clear enough for everyone?

[Adrian Ko]

As a site operator, I see the value of moderation and appreciate the difficulty it is to keep threads on topic. I apologize for any inconvenience and I'll submit to the requests of the moderators. I thank everyone for allowing me to share. This is my final post on this thread.

Have a great rest of the week! (And beyond that, of course!)

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Mark

And by "this matter," we mean (a) the book, and (b) the merits/demerits of the review topping this thread. It is possible to discuss the book AND the review without having to put it in terms of the personalities involved. Discussion of, for example, personal history, motivation, or any real or perceived "conflict," is off-topic.

Clear enough for everyone?

Hi Mark, Andrew and Ian.

Can I get a clarification? Since Manoucher makes many "personal observations" and conclusions in his book, his credentials as an expert may occasionally come up. How would the moderators like this to be handled?

Thanks
Jeff

[Ian]

Jeff:

We need to avoid commenting on the author, his credentials or his position on another forum, and focus on the substance of the book. The book is the enduring contribution to our field of interest and it needs to be evaluated on its merits. Where there are statements of personal opinion, these should be treated as such, but they should not be used to attack the author or his credibility.

This is a mammoth piece of work and deserves careful review, as Dr Rivkin has attempted.

Ian.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Adrian Ko

I'm also asking for the kindest consideration that the reconciliation and healing process begin now before it gets worse where people will end up carrying this vitriol to their graves.

It this a threat ? . Dear Adrian Ko, I understand you may be unaware of the situation, but this is a very bad idea .

[Rick]

I think we are drifting off topic and into personalities Gentlemen.

[Adrian Ko]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

It this a threat ? . Dear Adrian Ko, I understand you may be unaware of the situation, but this is a very bad idea .

Mr. Rivkin,

How can an olive branch be a threat? I'm offering to act as a go-between so that we can once and for all heal the rift that's causing division. I hope you're not trying to politicize a call for peace, but I think I'm a little more aware of the situation than you're crediting me for.

If there is a cultural issue here, "going to the grave" is not a death threat. Rather, all I'm saying is that if a person doesn't deal with interpersonal issues, those specific issues end up unresolved for the rest of his life. I hope that makes things clear.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Adrian Ko

Mr. Rivkin,

How can an olive branch be a threat? I'm offering to act as a go-between so that we can once and for all heal the rift that's causing division. I hope you're not trying to politicize a call for peace, but I think I'm a little more aware of the situation than you're crediting me for.

If there is a cultural issue here, "going to the grave" is not a death threat. Rather, if you don't deal with interpersonal issues, they end up with you for the rest of your life. I hope that makes things clear.

Adrian, I believe you are ignoring my request , nay demand that this discussion not degenerate into personalities as first cautioned by Ian .
As there is no other Moderator online at the moment I find myself forced to intercede.

Please cease this line of discussion and take it to PM.

Thank you.

[Adrian Ko]

Originally Posted by Rick

Adrian, I believe you are ignoring my request , nay demand that this discussion not degenerate into personalities as first cautioned by Ian .
As there is no other Moderator online at the moment I find myself forced to intercede.

Please cease this line of discussion and take it to PM.

Thank you.

Sorry, the implication that my post is a threat against Kirill Rivkin is too "hot" a topic to be left alone, especially if I am deprived the right to say what I mean.

There was never any threat to Kirill Rivkin. I believe sometimes things are misunderstood because of the way Americans post "American" English.

Nor was I intentionally ignoring your post, Rick. I did not read this thread in linear fashion and just zoomed in on what was directed at me.

[Emanuel]

Greetings,

So sorry to butt in on this, but I believe Rivkin here alludes to his own past writing being crap compared to what he believes today...not an attack on the author.

I have no problem if Manoucher for example comes after stuff I published on this forum. A lot of it (10-20%) is different than what I think today, and a some of it is simply crap.

I think I will buy this book...soon. At my level of collecting, I care very little about fine details and perfect provenance of examples and dates accurate to a few decades. From Rivkin's review and the few others I've read about this book, it would be good for me to get the book as it encompasses a lot that I could otherwise only get from many books - perhaps as expensive individually as this one.

Now to settle it in my mind, is there any other book published now or in the last three years comparable to M. Khorasani's book in geographi, historical, typological scope, etc...? If this book is generally, the most up to date publication around and reasonably accurate, then I'll get it.

Best regards, and forgive my intrusion
Emanuel

[B.I]

Originally Posted by Adrian Ko

Mr. Rivkin, is it possible that any review or critique of Manouchehr's book by you will be unavoidably baised due to your personal issues with the gentleman.

i think that rivkins post is quite well written and, considering we are aware of his, and others opinion on the author, i think the post itself is concentrated on the book itself. we are all aware of the sensitive issue at hand, and all personal issues MUST be put aside. that said, all opinions on any published book/article should be both welcomed and encouraged, if concentrated on the material itself.
i think his opinion is as valid as ann feuerbach's, for anns opinion was a personal one, and she did not speak for the academic world as a whole. her opinion was extremely well written and appreciated, but it was the opinion of a scholar from her personal point of view. if we cant give our own opinion, understanding the rules and ethics involved in a controlled discussion, then i dont really see the point of a forum.
as rivkin said, i think that everyone should buy this book, and judge it based on what they get out of it. mainly because i value my library as much as i do my collection, and all books, whether good or bad should be bought, read, and reviewed. if i can learn one thing from a huge, lengthy (and expensive) book, then it was worth buying, for surely knowledge is what it is all about.
however, i dont for one minute believe that all, or any books are definative, and mistakes should be pointed out and discussed. many will not agree as opinions themselves are personal, but debating is healthy. surely any author will want his issues discussed as, in an ideal world, the point of putting forward an idea or concept is to provoke a discussion.
i was in a unique position, to be able to watch this book hit the academic world, via the london arms fair. many people i know had never heard of the author or the book before seeing it on a well known booksellers table (remember, the majority of the academic world is not internet based, much to our disappointment). the book was bought and read, and there are many academic opinions that will not agree with ann. but, as i said, this is purely personal. individuals have there own expectations of what any published book should contain, and i definately do not agree on applauding a book on face value alone.
i dont think anyone will not accept the authors time and effort in publishing such a huge contribution, but there are issues that do need to be discussed. i have already seen the book quoted in the wrong way, and his terminology used incorrectly.
another point that rivkin made, that i completely agree with, is that amongst the many editors, not one had a speciality or knowledge in persian arms. i personally think this was the authors failing, and one of main the reasons that it hasnt been accepted in the academic world. the author acknowledged help from people i know well, and i know that if he had sent them the text beforehand, their suggestions would have aided the faults in the cataloguing.
i have wanted to write a review as well, but because i have yet to find the time to read the book from cover to cover, it would be a gross injustice to offer an overall opinion. i can review what i have read so far, but that would be unfair.
once again, i urge all to buy this book and read it well. there are so few publications on oriental arms, that none should slip the net.
but, it should be read alongside other books, and the text should be compared. there is much text that has been lifted and quoted, and a lot of the cataloguing has been assumed, without the opinion of the author involved. a book on persian arms should be as such. the inclusion of non persian pieces, classified as persian must be offered up for others to see, and if they dont agree (for all of this is opinion based) then a forum is a great place to discuss these issues.
i dont agree that they should be hushed up and taken as a given!
i personally commend the author for having both the time and inclination to publish a book on oriental arms, for any book, whether good or bad will attract an audience, and we all desperatly need arms to be brought up for discussion. there are too many museums that are putting away their weapons and replacing the space with more politically correct exhibitions. we need the attention that any book can offer. whether anyone agree with what the author has said is neither here nor there. his personal crusade in promoting his book (for whatever reason) can only help in attracting a non-collective audience to the issue of antique arms!

i made a point on an earlier post on this book. the author has listed the inventories of 10 museums in iran. this is invaluable! with the current and ongoing political situation, there is a good chance that many of us will never see the contents of these museums. i have travelled a lot to see collections, both private and in institution. the knowledge of a country full of antique weapons that i may never seen is very disheartening!
i dont really care wheter i agree with the cataloguing or not. it is good to see these weapons! i have many books in my library that were written as academic, but i treat as pure picture books. for surely a picture alone speaks a thousand words. i dont care whether its a bad picture or not, or whether the author says its persian and 19thC, and i feel its indian and 18thC. the point is i get to see the picture., and so can judge it for myself. for that, i thank the author.
i think it is time to put aside all differences. not just rivkin (which i think he did) but others that will assume he is posting in a negative manner. this aggression can only go against the book they are trying to defend!
there are biased views from both camps and i think enough threads have been locked for us to see the true way forward. this is a discussion of material, and in no way personal.
with that in mind, i look forward to a very interesting conversation!
i also look forward to finding the time to finish the book!!
i have a friend who is a well known academic and a well published author that was rejected by legat (manouchers publishing house) some time back. again, another point in the authors favour! publishing anything on a subject like arms is extremely difficult, and the promotion the author has instigated via his forum and various lectures will lead the way for others to publish, and attract other publishing houses to incorporate this subject into their portfolio.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Adrian Ko

I see not only Manouchehr being attacked but also attempts to undermine the very people who have been supportive of this book. It no longer appears that the motivation is purely intellectual. This behavior has to stop.

Thank you Adrian for trying to protect me from such covert seditious behaviour. However, I think I will judge the book and Kirill's review for myself.

I too have only had a chance to do a preliminarly review. So far there are parts I really like and parts I am very disappointed with. Overall I am really enjoying the process of going through the book.

I would also like to reiterate Brian's sentiment and hope this work will also encourage others to step up to the plate and write their knowledge down. We will all benefit!

Jeff