Yataghan or bayonet?

Ian · 14th November 2006, 02:37 AM

Hi Manolo:

I agree with Rick -- probably a rehilted bayonet.

When I saw your sword my first thought was the British P1856/1858 bayonet with the "button" finials on the guard. Although close, your blade has a T-spine, the fuller on your blade is wrong, and your sword seems to have a wider and less tapering blade than the British P1856 bayonet.

Unfortunately my bayonet references are buried deep in my study and I can't access them easily -- not a current passion.

But I will keep looking. In the meanwhile, here is a picture of a British P1856:

http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/brit1856.htm

Ian.

Emanuel · 14th November 2006, 04:09 AM

Rick, Ian, I thank you both.

You confirm my thoughts of a bayonet. I was unaware of the British patterns however, and only knew the French ones

. It seems many countries adopted this yataghan-type blade.

Thanks for the link Ian, it's quite helpful...I'll start my own research into these bayonets as well, they're damn beautiful I think.
Now why would anyone rehilt these in yataghan fashion? Was this a common practice at some point, or is it just to deceive unweary buyers?

Regards,
Emanuel

TVV · 14th November 2006, 04:46 AM

Could it be a Martini-Henry M1871 bayonet? The Ottomans were armed with this model during the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78. I could not find a good picture of this bayonet and hopefully DD can help. What I can say with certainty is that it is neither a Chassepot, nor a Snider bayonet, nor a bayonet for the 1874 Martini-Peabody rifle.

Ian · 14th November 2006, 05:43 AM

Michael:

AKAIK the only Martini bayonet that had a recurved "yataghan" style blade is P1860, which seems to be a direct descendant of the P1856/P1858 that I mentioned above. The P1860 was certainly adapted for use on the Martini-Henry Mk I M1871. Again, the same features that I mentioned above for the P1856/P1858 are different from Manolo's sword.

There is a nice web site on Martini bayonets here: http://www.martinihenry.com/bayonets.htm

ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Could it be a Martini-Henry M1871 bayonet? The Ottomans were armed with this model during the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78. I could not find a good picture of this bayonet and hopefully DD can help. What I can say with certainty is that it is neither a Chassepot, nor a Snider bayonet, nor a bayonet for the 1874 Martini-Peabody rifle.

tom hyle · 18th November 2006, 11:45 PM

It is probably not a rehilted bayonet (another over-attributed source) but an original European sword made with a similar blade; even if identical to a bayonet blade, such variations were quite common as new goods, and are often seen amongs European cutlery. Such items were produced for military and civilian/private-issue markets. It appears to be Eastern/central European; I'd suggest Austria were it not for the highly developed ears. If we've never seen this individual before, I remember having simialr comments on something a LOT like it; one could do a search; something may have been discovered in that discussion; my library computer time is running short..............

not2sharp · 20th November 2006, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

It is probably not a rehilted bayonet (another over-attributed source) but an original European sword made with a similar blade; even if identical to a bayonet blade, such variations were quite common as new goods, and are often seen amongs European cutlery. Such items were produced for military and civilian/private-issue markets. It appears to be Eastern/central European; I'd suggest Austria were it not for the highly developed ears. If we've never seen this individual before, I remember having simialr comments on something a LOT like it; one could do a search; something may have been discovered in that discussion; my library computer time is running short..............

I agree with Tom; this looks like a purpose made short sword. Just about every Western power made some of these during the 19th century. The US had an 1870s Coast Guard dress sword with a yatagan blade, and countless variations were also produced for verteran organizations, social groups, and private purchase.

Here is one that originally sold as a souvenir at the US Columbian Exposition.

n2s

Robert · 20th November 2006, 06:14 AM

I'm not sure that I would dismiss the bayonet idea. I've seen a few but not to many of the swords like not2sharp has posted and non of them have had the T shaped spine like on the one posted by Manolo. I have an unidentified bayonet with a T spine and a bronze grip and guard that has a blade almost identical to the one in the first post. I will take pictures and measurements and post them tomorrow as it is getting late and I hear bed calling me.

Robert

14th November 2006, 02:37 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,523	Looks like a rehilted bayonet Hi Manolo: I agree with Rick -- probably a rehilted bayonet. When I saw your sword my first thought was the British P1856/1858 bayonet with the "button" finials on the guard. Although close, your blade has a T-spine, the fuller on your blade is wrong, and your sword seems to have a wider and less tapering blade than the British P1856 bayonet. Unfortunately my bayonet references are buried deep in my study and I can't access them easily -- not a current passion. But I will keep looking. In the meanwhile, here is a picture of a British P1856: http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/brit1856.htm Ian.

14th November 2006, 04:09 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Rick, Ian, I thank you both. You confirm my thoughts of a bayonet. I was unaware of the British patterns however, and only knew the French ones . It seems many countries adopted this yataghan-type blade. Thanks for the link Ian, it's quite helpful...I'll start my own research into these bayonets as well, they're damn beautiful I think. Now why would anyone rehilt these in yataghan fashion? Was this a common practice at some point, or is it just to deceive unweary buyers? Regards, Emanuel

14th November 2006, 04:46 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,725	Could it be a Martini-Henry M1871 bayonet? The Ottomans were armed with this model during the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78. I could not find a good picture of this bayonet and hopefully DD can help. What I can say with certainty is that it is neither a Chassepot, nor a Snider bayonet, nor a bayonet for the 1874 Martini-Peabody rifle.

18th November 2006, 11:45 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It is probably not a rehilted bayonet (another over-attributed source) but an original European sword made with a similar blade; even if identical to a bayonet blade, such variations were quite common as new goods, and are often seen amongs European cutlery. Such items were produced for military and civilian/private-issue markets. It appears to be Eastern/central European; I'd suggest Austria were it not for the highly developed ears. If we've never seen this individual before, I remember having simialr comments on something a LOT like it; one could do a search; something may have been discovered in that discussion; my library computer time is running short..............

20th November 2006, 06:14 AM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I'm not sure that I would dismiss the bayonet idea. I've seen a few but not to many of the swords like not2sharp has posted and non of them have had the T shaped spine like on the one posted by Manolo. I have an unidentified bayonet with a T spine and a bronze grip and guard that has a blade almost identical to the one in the first post. I will take pictures and measurements and post them tomorrow as it is getting late and I hear bed calling me. Robert