Markings or Decorations on Mexican Swords

[Matt Branch]

Here are some photos of the PDL and the recasso on my sword.
Re the PDL, I have not found a Luneschloss blade that had the initals ingraved in the blade in cursive, so I've been thinking that they are spurious or the initals of the sword owner. Perhaps you are right about Germany, Juan J. Perez has said he thinks it is a soligen blade but I have not found one that is close or has the tri fullers like mine does so I was looking at Oaxaca as a possability.
In the photos you can see the ricasso on my blade is the same size and shape as the dish hilt hanger, and the fullers are in about the same place, I can't tell how long the fullers are on the hanger so I don't know if that would match.
As I said earlier, I don't know how to tell what the blade is made out of so any info on that would be great.
I saw a short article on Espada Anchas where the autor said that a lot of them were rehilted with 3 bar iron hilts from England around the Mexican -American war, and mine does look lihe cast iron.
My ggg grandfather was in company I 10th Michigan Infantry. He enlisted as a sergent and was made company wagon master Nov. 20 1861 and was promoted to Lieutenant after the afore mentioned skirmish.
Thanks for all you're work Jim and all the info!
Is there a way to tell if my blade has been cut down?
Is there a way to confirm the PDL?
Best Regards
Matt

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Matt,
I'm glad you have spoken to Juan Perez as he is one of the most knowledgable people I know on Spanish swords, so I am glad that he agrees this blade is, like many of the other triple fuller examples, from Solingen.
As Chamberlain notes in his book, many of these blades were hilted in Mexico with three bar iron hilts in the 1820's and 30's. English hilts seem quite likely, although the three bar hilt became popular with a number of countries during those times. Yours does seem English.

Interesting on the PDL, which certainly seems to represent Luneschloss, who furnished edged weapons for Britain, France, Belgium, Holland and the U.S.- "where Luneschloss supplied both sides during the US Civil War of 1861-65"
("Sword and Bayonet Makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918", John Walter, 1975, p111-114). This reference notes further, "...quantities of etched and engraved weapons were also marketed alongside cutlery and tableware".

While this reference clearly is assigned in scope to the period after the Civil War, the existing history of the makers prior to that time is discussed briefly.
It should be noted that Luneschloss worked closely with London dealers, much as many German makers had for many years, and that England was of course quite active in supplying Confederate forces. Although the obviously Mexican motif seems misplaced on a sword found in Confederate hands, it does seem as I mentioned, not that surprising given the complexities of supply networking during those wartime years. While most of the Luneschloss blades I have seen were stamped, especially the U.S. examples. On an interesting side note, when the U.S.pattern 1840 cavalry sabres were introduced, the earliest examples were actually German made! until Ames took the contract.

I still am inclined to think that the blade may have been decorated in Germany, it would appear by Luneschloss, and the cursive script may have been because it might have been intended in some diplomatic sense? It is really difficult to say, yet we know where it ended up

Do your records show what location in Tennessee the action took place?
I lived in Nashville for nearly ten years and the history was fascinating, though I didnt really get into it as much as I should have then. It seems all the focus was on the Battle of Stones River (Murfreesboro).

Your blade seems to me full profile, so dont think it is cut down, and it is of course forged steel. The hilts were iron or brass.

All the best,
Jim

[Matt Branch]

Thanks Jim for all the input.
I have been thinking, about this blade, when I started you could not see a pattern or mark on my blade.
I wanted to find my family history and connect with my roots.
As I began to conserve the blade and the decorations began to appear, the blade took on a life of it's own.
The battle marks on the blade have begun to speak to me.
Clearly this blade has seen battle and has taken life or limb. This has weighed on me at times as I have spent many hours with oil and flitz to reveal the blade under years of rust.
I got the sword in 1974 from my grandfather, and took it to my dad and it sat in a gun cabinet till last year when I rescued it. And started this journey.
My search is about history and my family and has become about the blade.
From my records , a member of my family has served during every war from the civil war to Desert storm. I served during Viet Nam.
When I look at this blade I wonder, where it has been and what it has seen.
That is why I need to know who made it where has it been and what has it seen, and I will not give up till I know.
I have approached this trying to match the size, type and measurments of my blade thinking that it is the best way to ID my blade.
I hope to find the source, solingen, oxacac or toledo and trace how it came to my family.
Others have been critical of my posts and my efforts, but they don't understand.
This isn't a piece of metal, this is my history, my life, my childrens legacy
Regards
Matt

[Matt Branch]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Matt,
I'm glad you have spoken to Juan Perez as he is one of the most knowledgable people I know on Spanish swords, so I am glad that he agrees this blade is, like many of the other triple fuller examples, from Solingen.
As Chamberlain notes in his book, many of these blades were hilted in Mexico with three bar iron hilts in the 1820's and 30's. English hilts seem quite likely, although the three bar hilt became popular with a number of countries during those times. Yours does seem English.

Interesting on the PDL, which certainly seems to represent Luneschloss, who furnished edged weapons for Britain, France, Belgium, Holland and the U.S.- "where Luneschloss supplied both sides during the US Civil War of 1861-65"
("Sword and Bayonet Makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918", John Walter, 1975, p111-114). This reference notes further, "...quantities of etched and engraved weapons were also marketed alongside cutlery and tableware".

While this reference clearly is assigned in scope to the period after the Civil War, the existing history of the makers prior to that time is discussed briefly.
It should be noted that Luneschloss worked closely with London dealers, much as many German makers had for many years, and that England was of course quite active in supplying Confederate forces. Although the obviously Mexican motif seems misplaced on a sword found in Confederate hands, it does seem as I mentioned, not that surprising given the complexities of supply networking during those wartime years. While most of the Luneschloss blades I have seen were stamped, especially the U.S. examples. On an interesting side note, when the U.S.pattern 1840 cavalry sabres were introduced, the earliest examples were actually German made! until Ames took the contract.

I still am inclined to think that the blade may have been decorated in Germany, it would appear by Luneschloss, and the cursive script may have been because it might have been intended in some diplomatic sense? It is really difficult to say, yet we know where it ended up

Do your records show what location in Tennessee the action took place?
I lived in Nashville for nearly ten years and the history was fascinating, though I didnt really get into it as much as I should have then. It seems all the focus was on the Battle of Stones River (Murfreesboro).

Your blade seems to me full profile, so dont think it is cut down, and it is of course forged steel. The hilts were iron or brass.

All the best,
Jim

The report I have lists Mill Creek as the locationof the skirmish. I don't know if that helps.
Thanks
Best regards
Matt

[Matt Branch]

Hi Jim.
There is an account in the report of a supply train on the way to Murfreesboro being attccked by a force of about 3000 rebels and that they were turned away after having lost 10 killed and 15 wounded and taken prisoner.
That was co's A & D and some other Infantry.
The train my gg grandfather was on and attacked was the Mill Creek, Nashville and Chattanooga and was on it's way to Lavergne.
In the report it states that the Michigan marched 1700 miles in 22 months and that many of the men went barefoot for extended periods.
War is hell.

Do you know of a way to find any Solingen Sword makers that were in business during that era? I have done a lot of searches on Google and Yahoo and have not been succesfull finding any yet.

Thanks again for all you're help!

Regards
Matt

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Matt,
Sorry for the absence, busy week!!
On Solingen makers, one of the best resources would probably be Richard Bezdek's book on German swordsmiths. The one I use is "Sword and Bayonet Makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918" (John Walter, 1973).

I came across an interesting item in a rather unusually titled book, "Jumbos Hide, Elvis' Ride and Tooth of Buddha" (Harvey Rachlin, N.Y.2000) which sounds like the title for a really, really bad B-movie! Actually the book is an extremely interesting collection of information on historical relics and artifacts that was the basis for the program, "Americas Lost and Found".

On p.152 is an article titled "The Battle Sword of Colonel Najera".
It concerns the Mexican-American War and an unusual 'duel' which took place during battle on Sept. 21,1846 near Monterrey, Mexico. Apparantly Col. John C. Hays (Texas Rangers fame) was challenged by Col. Juan N.Najera of the Jalisco Cavalry (Gen. Manuel Romeros brigade of Lancers). In the combat, where Najera was killed, both men had swords drawn. The sabre was later retrieved and held by Hays' family, eventually ending up in the Gene Autry Museum of Western Heritage near Los Angeles.

The sabre looks remarkably the same as yours, and its blade has the same three fuller blade we have discussed. This is simply further support for the provenance of Mexican sabres from that war becoming property of U.S. forces , many of whom became Confederate officers in later years. The Confederates often even advertised for weapons to add to thier arsenals, from any sources available.

Hope you will find this added information interesting

All the best,
Jim

[Matt Branch]

Hi Jim, nice to hear from you, I will check the local librarys for that book, is there a photo of the sword in the book?
I have looked for German Swords and Sword Makers and no book store has one nor do the librarys within 200 miles of me.
On the thread I posted on the German Language forum on SFI a gentleman directed me to the Klingenmuseum, I have sent them some photos of my sword, they said that they may be able to help me.
I found a teacher at a college in South Dakota who knows the Aragon family in Oaxaca and I sent them an e-mail but have not heard back from them.
The attached photos; my great grandfather's living room around 1885. I hade to scan it to get the picture of my gg grandfather holding the sword and is from the Civil War.
My sword is on top of the piano in the upper left and the picture is on the lower right of the piano.
Thanks again for all of you're help!
Regards
Matt

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Matt,
The title "German Swords and Sword Makers" by Richard H. Bezdek is available on Amazon books.
Outstanding and exciting photos of the sword in your grandfathers possession! It is so remarkable to see one of these swords that is so faultlessly provenanced. Nice follow up research you are doing as well.
There is a photo of the Najera sword in the book, but as always very poor quality. Possibly contacting that museum they will furnish a photo.
Thanks for keeping this going and keeping us up with the research as well as sharing the great photos!
I think your shot of the sword against the clouded sky is a masterpiece!
Pulitzer prize stuff!!
All the best,
Jim