Bolo with wide blade and t-grip for identification

[Conogre]

Hi Guys...so THIS is where you all went!
Tom, glad to see that someone else came up with another one so that we're finally heading towards a type, where as up until now it was the only one I'd dever seen.
And yes, by the way, I still have it....the blade is definitely hand forged and completely unlike a machete in any fashion except for the fact that it's much thinner than anything I've seen from either the Philippines or the Indonesian area.
As to Timor, I have an opi that's almost twice as thick as the "mystery sword", while much thinner side profile.
Along the spine, near the guard, it's got 7 rows of three bars, very much like some of the tourist dhas from Thailand from the Vietnam era, opening the possibilty that it could well be from one of the older hill tribes that just aren't that well researched, maybe?

[Conogre]

Well the original swords that began this thread have now been unarguably identified as being from the Philippines, although which tribe is still open to question.
Engar's post of weapons from the museum in madrid has 2 exacly like ours and one with a slightly different hilt.
See "Museo Militar Madrid"-weapons-photo 2 and numbered 2, listed as "Machete Filappino" and "Museo Nacional Anthropologia Madrid", photograph #26 for two more, with no name or origin listed, other than included with the Philippine weapons.
Perhaps Engar could be persuaded to ask the museum officials if they have any additional information the next time he visits?
Mike

[Ian]

Mike:

"Unarguably" is a little strong, I think. I'm not willing to accept a Philippines origin just yet. Museum staff are notoriously bad at assigning attributions for edged weapons, so I would like to see the historic documentary evidence on these bolos before agreeing completely with you.

If you look through the pictures of these displays, there are some minor and major anomalies. For example, a couple of khoumiya have strayed on to one board, and many of the displays show an eclectic mix of Moro, Visayan, Luzon, and frankly Spanish weapons.

Comparing the original subject of this thread with the similar examples shown in the Madrid Museum, I am not seeing the fancy cut out designs at forte on the museum examples, nor I do see the sloppy rattan work on the hilts of the Madrid specimens.

If you look through the variety of swords and other edged weapons shown in the Madrid displays, the Machete Filappino is a distinct oddity, with its fat-bellied blade, a hilt with square cross-section (as opposed to round, octagonal or hexagonal) and a bifid, full-tang hilt construction. There is nothing else that remotely resembles this combination of features. This suggests to me that this machete is not primarily of Philippine origin. I would suggest that it is at least based on a style imported from elsewhere by the Spaniards (perhaps Central or South America where the fat-bellied form of machete has been common, and may have developed originally).

A connection to Spanish America is something I have thought since I first saw these bolos. There was certainly extensive trade between the Philippines and Spanish America, especially Mexico. Indeed, several of the Governors of the Philippines during the Spanish period came from Mexico.

Whatever may have been the origin of what is labeled the Machete Filappino, it seems to have virtually disappeared from the Philippines today, perhaps replaced by what we recognize as modern machetes or by traditional bolos.

There remain some further loose ends for me with respect to the attribution of the original subject of this thread to the Philippines. There is the picture of a very un-Filipino looking man holding a similar bolo, and the cryptic, partly legible inscription. I'm not seeing anything there that would confirm the Philippines, and there is no legible reference to a place or tribal group that would confirm a Philippine origin.

Lastly, despite the substantial experience on this Forum with Philippine edged weapons, including several native Filipinos from various parts of that country, nobody has identified these definitely as Philippine in origin. Nobody is saying, "my grandfather had one hanging on the wall" or "the oldtimers used to cut bananas with these things." With the exception of Federico, there has been a resounding walang wala. Does this mean that none of them have ever seen or heard of anything resembling these bolos in the Philippines?

Those are the reasons I'm still skeptical Mike. Provide some documented answers to my questions and concerns, and I will happily agree with you that these are from the Philippines.

-----------------------

Definition of machete: "Machete" is a Spanish term, and I found three on line references to the defnition of machete.
"1. A large heavy knife with a broad blade, used as a weapon and an implement for cutting vegetation.
[Spanish: diminutive of macho, sledge hammer; alteration of mazo, club, probably from maza, mallet, from Vulgar Latin mattea, mace.]


2. A large heavy knife used in Central and South America as a weapon or for cutting vegetation.
Synonyms: matchet, panga


3. A machete (pronounced muh-shet-ee) is a cleaver-like tool that looks like a very large bread knife. The blade is about 1.5 – 2.0 feet (0.5 m – 0.6 m) long. An English equivalent term is matchet. Since the 1950s, most modern factory made machetes are of very simple construction, consisting of a blade and full length tang punched from a single piece of flat steel plate of uniform thickness (and thus lack a primary grind), and a simple grip of two plates of wood or plastic bolted or rivetted together around the tang. Finally, one side is ground down to an edge - although some are made so cheaply that the purchaser is expected to finish the sharpening. These machetes are usually provided with a simple cord loop as a sort of lanyard, and a canvas scabbard - although in some regions where machetes are commonly used tools, the users may make decorative leather scabbards for them.

The machete is normally used to cut through thick vegetation such as sugar cane or jungle undergrowth (the lack of a primary grind makes the machete much less effective on woody vegetation), but it can also be used as an offensive weapon. Machetes were the primary weapon used by the Interahamwe militias in the Rwandan Genocide. The modern machete is very similar to some forms of the mediaeval falchion (a type of sword), differing mainly in the lack of a guard and a simpler hilt.

A panga (a Swahili word) is a variant used in East Africa, with a broader blade and a squared off tip. In the Philippines, a bolo is a very similar tool, but with the blade swelling just before the tip to make the knife even more tip-heavy for chopping.

Other similar tools include the parang and the golok (from Malaysia and Indonesia), however these tend to have shorter, thicker blades with a primary grind, and are more effective on woody vegetation."

[engar]

Perhaps Engar could be persuaded to ask the museum officials if they have any additional information the next time he visits?
The next week

It´s true that exist a very big difference between catalogation in Museo del Ejercito and Museo Antropologico. The Museo del Ejercito have a very bad catalogation, may be they don´t have any person specialized on PI weaponry but not in Museo Antropologico. But I´m not and expert but it looks like they have no idea about PI weaponry. Anyway they mix weapons from different countries in the same "shield" but always you find very clear the info on the poster (not always correct info, LOL).

A connection to Spanish America is something I have thought since I first saw these bolos. There was certainly extensive trade between the Philippines and Spanish America, especially Mexico. Indeed, several of the Governors of the Philippines during the Spanish period came from Mexico.
Philippines Government depends on Mejico Government during long time.

Excuse my interference on the thread.

[Ian]

You are not intruding at all. You have actually helped us a lot in our discussions here. I am most grateful for the pictures you have posted. These are very helpful. Please do add your thoughts and comments here also.

Ian.

[Conogre]

Ouch, ouch ouch!**grin**
Points taken, Ian, although if you look closely at "the sword" on the right in this picture:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/e...t=HPIM2214.jpg
I think you'll see that appear to me to be tha same diamond shaped cut outs as are present in the sword I have.
I too saw the saw the khoumiyas and was hesitant to say anything because of that alone, although I do have to admit to being swayed and a little excited (who, me? **grin**) when I saw the 2nd two peaces.
I also see your points in regards to the obvious point that many things became confused with the Philippines being a stop off point between Spanish ships too and from S. America, thus may have been transported from either direction, although I honestly have to say that actually holding one of these, they have absolutely no "machete" feel to them, at least compared to any weapon or tool even vaguely in that category.
I can't speak for Tom's piece, but mine has a hilt that has a similarity in common with many pices from India that I've not seen mentioned (nor that I thought to mention, sorry) in that the hilt is too small for me to hold comfortably in any position, as in most tulwars, while I've not found this to be true with most weapons indigenous to the Philippine Islands....likewise, the hilt on mine is covered with pieces of brass that have been cut, shaped and interlocked to cover the wooden frame, much like a Moroccan flyssa, with one of the museum specimens appearing to be similarly brass covered, even with a projecting tang, as in mine.
Likewise, while the blade is deep and broad-bellied, the tang construction is so weak that, in all honesty, I would expect it to come apart if used as a machete or similar field tool, much like the tangs on the head taking axes would prohibit them form being used to fell trees.
Can I just say that thre's a much stronger POSSIBLITY that these may be of Philippine origin? **grin**
The single strongest indicator, I guess, is that three of them showed up in the same collection (and only two jambiyas **another grin**), with only two that we know of having been run accross in the past 5 years or so.
Mike