A group of 3 swords won on eBay

katana · 11th November 2006, 10:27 PM

Forgot the link....been a bit forgetful tonight...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...5214&rd=1&rd=1

spiral · 12th November 2006, 11:15 AM

Quote. "The Kaskara is etched in Arabic (no scabbard ), Hoping that there may be a tie to the Mahdist Uprising with the Kaskara.......and possibly the Wilkinson Sword ."

A Nice bargain bunch!

As the Wilkinson is numbered theres a good chance you can trace who purchased it & when. Then trace thier service history.

Good luck!

Spiral

katana · 12th November 2006, 12:08 PM

Hi Spiral,
thank you,

I am certainly taking your advice...I am hoping that the serial no. matches the name of the original purchaser...or at least the Regiment it went to. At least, I can trace the possibility that the owner/Regiment was/were active in the Sudan at the time of the 'uprising'. Seeing as these swords are from someones estate....it seems strange that they would have a Kaskara 'matched' with it. I am hoping the Kaskara's etched blade may have a date....however, as we know...this would not be definative proof...the date could be faked. I think IMHO that the history of the Wilkinson sword will ..perhaps..provide clues to the provinance of the Kaskara.

Could anyone confirm that that the wooden hilted SEA sword is a 'tourist' item......its just that many iitems sold to travellers are based on genuine articles ....are there SEA swords and scabbards similar to this one??

Is a replacement scabbard for the Wilkinson sword, hard to find? Does anyone know what pattern this sword is ? Thankyou for any information

Battara · 12th November 2006, 07:27 PM

the SE Asian piece is I believe a tourist dha from Vietnam.

katana · 12th November 2006, 10:52 PM

Thanks Battara,
I was fairly sure that it was.....but not fully 100%...lack of knowledge with regards SEA weapons.....but I'm learning

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2006, 05:50 AM

Hi Katana,
Nice to get the kaskara and the quite possibly associated British sabre!
The photos are pretty unclear, but the sabre appears to be a M1822 Royal Artillery officers, if the pommel is stepped (if it is checkered, then it is the M1822 light cavalry). As you have indicated, Henry Wilkinson was located at Pall Mall in London. I believe his partner John Latham continued using the name even after Henry's death in 1861.
Wilkinson was actually originally making guns primarily until his fullered blades replaced the pipe back by 1849, when he began sword production. The firm did not begin numbering blades until 1853, and I am not certain that even then, all were numbered.
As also noted, the straight blade began about 1870's, and this pattern was used until replaced by heavy cavalry pattern in 1896, though actually the use continued beyond that.
Interestingly, a good source on the Sudanese campaigns was published in 1976 by a descendant , Robert Wilkinson-Latham (Osprey #59, "The Sudan Campaigns 1881-98").
The most famed event of these campaigns was the charge of the 21st Lancers at Omdurman Sept. 2, 1898, though the Ansar forces of the Khalifa Abdullah al Taashi were not defeated entirely for another year.

It seems presumable that these swords, at least most likely the kaskara, may have been in use during the Mahdist period. If not mistaken, usually the script on these kaskaras is 'thuluth', typically undecipherable motif, thus a date would not be likely. This is typically acid etched script.

Whatever the case, the swords are excellent representative pieces that typify the swords used during this period.

Best regards,
Jim

katana · 13th November 2006, 10:53 AM

Hi Jim,
thankyou for your informative comments....always a pleasure to hear from you

. I must admit I'm quite excited about the prospect of researching the history of both swords. The sword (Wilkinson) is indeed numbered.....my only reservation is that the information held by Wilkinson Sword can be minimal ie only the branch of the Armed Forces that the sword was sold to, is known...... to much more detailed info when sold to an Individual, ie name, rank, regiment etc........only time will tell....
I am also pleased that I'm not the only one who thinks there is a relationship between the two swords..... I was beginnig to think my over active imagination ...had lead me astray.....again

11th November 2006, 10:27 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Forgot the link....been a bit forgetful tonight... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...5214&rd=1&rd=1

12th November 2006, 11:15 AM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Quote. "The Kaskara is etched in Arabic (no scabbard ), Hoping that there may be a tie to the Mahdist Uprising with the Kaskara.......and possibly the Wilkinson Sword ." A Nice bargain bunch! As the Wilkinson is numbered theres a good chance you can trace who purchased it & when. Then trace thier service history. Good luck! Spiral

12th November 2006, 12:08 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Spiral, thank you, I am certainly taking your advice...I am hoping that the serial no. matches the name of the original purchaser...or at least the Regiment it went to. At least, I can trace the possibility that the owner/Regiment was/were active in the Sudan at the time of the 'uprising'. Seeing as these swords are from someones estate....it seems strange that they would have a Kaskara 'matched' with it. I am hoping the Kaskara's etched blade may have a date....however, as we know...this would not be definative proof...the date could be faked. I think IMHO that the history of the Wilkinson sword will ..perhaps..provide clues to the provinance of the Kaskara. Could anyone confirm that that the wooden hilted SEA sword is a 'tourist' item......its just that many iitems sold to travellers are based on genuine articles ....are there SEA swords and scabbards similar to this one?? Is a replacement scabbard for the Wilkinson sword, hard to find? Does anyone know what pattern this sword is ? Thankyou for any information

12th November 2006, 07:27 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,339	the SE Asian piece is I believe a tourist dha from Vietnam.

12th November 2006, 10:52 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks Battara, I was fairly sure that it was.....but not fully 100%...lack of knowledge with regards SEA weapons.....but I'm learning

13th November 2006, 05:50 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,616	Hi Katana, Nice to get the kaskara and the quite possibly associated British sabre! The photos are pretty unclear, but the sabre appears to be a M1822 Royal Artillery officers, if the pommel is stepped (if it is checkered, then it is the M1822 light cavalry). As you have indicated, Henry Wilkinson was located at Pall Mall in London. I believe his partner John Latham continued using the name even after Henry's death in 1861. Wilkinson was actually originally making guns primarily until his fullered blades replaced the pipe back by 1849, when he began sword production. The firm did not begin numbering blades until 1853, and I am not certain that even then, all were numbered. As also noted, the straight blade began about 1870's, and this pattern was used until replaced by heavy cavalry pattern in 1896, though actually the use continued beyond that. Interestingly, a good source on the Sudanese campaigns was published in 1976 by a descendant , Robert Wilkinson-Latham (Osprey #59, "The Sudan Campaigns 1881-98"). The most famed event of these campaigns was the charge of the 21st Lancers at Omdurman Sept. 2, 1898, though the Ansar forces of the Khalifa Abdullah al Taashi were not defeated entirely for another year. It seems presumable that these swords, at least most likely the kaskara, may have been in use during the Mahdist period. If not mistaken, usually the script on these kaskaras is 'thuluth', typically undecipherable motif, thus a date would not be likely. This is typically acid etched script. Whatever the case, the swords are excellent representative pieces that typify the swords used during this period. Best regards, Jim

13th November 2006, 10:53 AM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, thankyou for your informative comments....always a pleasure to hear from you . I must admit I'm quite excited about the prospect of researching the history of both swords. The sword (Wilkinson) is indeed numbered.....my only reservation is that the information held by Wilkinson Sword can be minimal ie only the branch of the Armed Forces that the sword was sold to, is known...... to much more detailed info when sold to an Individual, ie name, rank, regiment etc........only time will tell.... I am also pleased that I'm not the only one who thinks there is a relationship between the two swords..... I was beginnig to think my over active imagination ...had lead me astray.....again