Arms room Grand Palace Bangkok

RhysMichael · 5th December 2004, 03:17 PM

Thanks Dan. Lots of good information here and yes I did see the handle resemblance on the dha I just got. I have had several people tell me they had keris that came from thailand so this helps to clear that up . I am distressed at the condition of the swords kept there. Though we saw pictures at the timonium dinner last year from India that showed even worse storage and maintenece on swords; it is still a true shame. The time you and Mike spent there gathered a huge amount of information and once I sort it all out it will help me a great deal. The Japanese and Chinese influnce seems to be taking a greater role than I previously thought on these. Did the Grand Palace or the National Museum indicate they had a catelogue of these swords ? If so I need to try to obtain one. The badek was a total surprise though it probably should not have been. I can't wait to see Mikes's Pictures.

I am wondering that now that we can save pictures here if we should not start some categorized threads on things like "Thailand National Museum" , "Bankok Royal" palace" or "thai swordmakers" that we could post pictures and informations on these in a way that may be easier to recall and research with, and people could add information there as we get it. Just a thought as I refer back often to Ians Contemporary Dha thread, the threads on the initial Greaves-Winston system, and the recent thread on the provenance of thai sword.

Ian · 5th December 2004, 03:47 PM

Dan:

Again, we who have difficulty getting to mainland SE Asia are indebted to you for yet another excellent photo essay on our favorite sword genre. You continue to move us forward in the quest for new knowledge and insight.

I wonder if there may not be some areas of mutual interest to explore with a couple of the institutions that you visited. For example, the sad condition of many of these swords does not reflect the true state of the arms, or glory of the periods they represent. I'm wondering if these museums might let a few foreigners assist them in restoring some representative examples, so that the Thai people might better appreciate their heritage. In return we could learn a lot and obtain the pictures we seek.

After all, many of us have been lavishing loving care on our own examples for years, and we probably know as much about restoring and repairing these swords as many "experts" -- worth asking?

Ian.

Adni Aljunied · 5th December 2004, 04:52 PM

Wow! Am sure going to make some time to this place soon.
Am truly surpirse to see the badeks being associated with the Thais. From the pics the top half sure looks Bugis, with the "pitol grip" like handle, and one is clearly a sewah, with the typical handle and blade with a "ferrule" made one with the blade. But the bottom half are a lot more golok or "pisau" (Knife) looking.
Sadly the keris pictures are not that good, and althoguh there are a few Bugis pieces, they seems not to have a typical Bugis handle, only from the sheath we see the Bugis feature. The ones at the top appears longer, but surely not Bugis, and has more Javanese looking sheaths, but if the length is more than 2 feet, than they cud be Balinese, but then again the fittings and especially the handle is not Balinese.
Biggest surprise is not to see either a Tajong or a Coteng!!! Maybe you did not took any pictures??
Very interesting indeed, and wish I have the time to go there in the near future, but have a trip planned elsewhere already.
Thanks Khun Deng for the splendid infos, and wish the photos are more clearer, but nonetheless, you and the wife did a good "007" job taking it.

ariel · 5th December 2004, 05:00 PM

I visited the Royal Palace and this museum about 5 years ago. Tremendous number of interesting swords but total lack of any academic information (unlike, say, Topkapi) and absolutely appalling condition. Virtually all exponates are exibited "in the open", and some are stored in flimsy glass cages. The doors to the exhibition rooms lead straight outside and are wide open; there is no climate control and the heat/humidity are unbearable. It was a mystery to me how these blades still retained their form and not disintegrated into small piles of rust. Most blades were covered with dark-brown or reddish layers of rust and the wooden/ivory handles had nasty-looking stains on them. It was sad to look at and very difficult to understand why didn't the Royal family take better care of the national heritage.....

Radu Transylvanicus · 5th December 2004, 06:27 PM

Ariel, with the risk of being ,,avocatus diaboli,, that is exactly one of the best reasons why I am not so pro-restitution from Euro-American museums, I had serious conflicts in our own museums debating over ,,wall,, or ,,case,, display or restoration detail and I accused my own execs of carelesness over such but those seem ,,snobish,, minor things when looking at this, in a place of such importance , true national armorial tresure, it enrages me the preservation ignorance of major historical artifacts specially when they have an edge or a barrel... it might even be better for the sake of preservation to go in private collections ...

Since efforts of preservation here looks more like going fishing with dynamite in a coral reef maybe ,,Ocean 13,, wouldnt be a bad idea ? ...

wolviex · 5th December 2004, 06:47 PM

Beautiful exposition, but the condition of the objects is indeed gruesome. I work in Museum, I really do understand financial problems of some museums, where everything, even paper to write a letter (not mention about pencils) you must buy by yourself, becouse of lack of money - but even then there is no chance to display object which is rusty. And here we can see a truly kingdom of rust! UNBELIEVABLE!!! Somebody should made serious intervention there before it's too late!!
It doesn't mean there are no rusty object in my museum - I admit, but they're waiting for conservation in refuge of magazines.

Mark · 5th December 2004, 10:52 PM

Great pictures, Dan. The number of blades there is just amazing.

I, too, am of course appalled at their condition. I imagine climate control in Bangkok is not an easy proposition, however. Still, I image that the royal family has sufficient funds to at least do something. Perhaps we can be the catalyst? Who knows? We just need to push ahead with our research, cultivate the contacts you have made, and show them that we are sincere. Hopefully there will be a chnage in attitude.

Andrew · 6th December 2004, 02:02 AM

Wow.

Dan, thank you so much for sharing this with us. I'm blown away by the number of swords there. The condition doesn't excite me, but those photos certainly do.

With nearly every post you make, I'm more and more grateful for your work, and simultaneously frustrated by my personal lack of time.

You rock!

Best,
Andrew

5th December 2004, 03:47 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Fine work Dan ... Dan: Again, we who have difficulty getting to mainland SE Asia are indebted to you for yet another excellent photo essay on our favorite sword genre. You continue to move us forward in the quest for new knowledge and insight. I wonder if there may not be some areas of mutual interest to explore with a couple of the institutions that you visited. For example, the sad condition of many of these swords does not reflect the true state of the arms, or glory of the periods they represent. I'm wondering if these museums might let a few foreigners assist them in restoring some representative examples, so that the Thai people might better appreciate their heritage. In return we could learn a lot and obtain the pictures we seek. After all, many of us have been lavishing loving care on our own examples for years, and we probably know as much about restoring and repairing these swords as many "experts" -- worth asking? Ian.

5th December 2004, 06:27 PM	#5
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Ariel, with the risk of being ,,avocatus diaboli,, that is exactly one of the best reasons why I am not so pro-restitution from Euro-American museums, I had serious conflicts in our own museums debating over ,,wall,, or ,,case,, display or restoration detail and I accused my own execs of carelesness over such but those seem ,,snobish,, minor things when looking at this, in a place of such importance , true national armorial tresure, it enrages me the preservation ignorance of major historical artifacts specially when they have an edge or a barrel... it might even be better for the sake of preservation to go in private collections ... Since efforts of preservation here looks more like going fishing with dynamite in a coral reef maybe ,,Ocean 13,, wouldnt be a bad idea ? ... Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 5th December 2004 at 06:39 PM.

5th December 2004, 06:47 PM	#6
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Kingdom of rust Beautiful exposition, but the condition of the objects is indeed gruesome. I work in Museum, I really do understand financial problems of some museums, where everything, even paper to write a letter (not mention about pencils) you must buy by yourself, becouse of lack of money - but even then there is no chance to display object which is rusty. And here we can see a truly kingdom of rust! UNBELIEVABLE!!! Somebody should made serious intervention there before it's too late!! It doesn't mean there are no rusty object in my museum - I admit, but they're waiting for conservation in refuge of magazines.

5th December 2004, 03:17 PM	#1
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Thanks Dan. Lots of good information here and yes I did see the handle resemblance on the dha I just got. I have had several people tell me they had keris that came from thailand so this helps to clear that up . I am distressed at the condition of the swords kept there. Though we saw pictures at the timonium dinner last year from India that showed even worse storage and maintenece on swords; it is still a true shame. The time you and Mike spent there gathered a huge amount of information and once I sort it all out it will help me a great deal. The Japanese and Chinese influnce seems to be taking a greater role than I previously thought on these. Did the Grand Palace or the National Museum indicate they had a catelogue of these swords ? If so I need to try to obtain one. The badek was a total surprise though it probably should not have been. I can't wait to see Mikes's Pictures. I am wondering that now that we can save pictures here if we should not start some categorized threads on things like "Thailand National Museum" , "Bankok Royal" palace" or "thai swordmakers" that we could post pictures and informations on these in a way that may be easier to recall and research with, and people could add information there as we get it. Just a thought as I refer back often to Ians Contemporary Dha thread, the threads on the initial Greaves-Winston system, and the recent thread on the provenance of thai sword.

5th December 2004, 04:52 PM	#3
Adni Aljunied Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: singapore Posts: 13	Wow! Am sure going to make some time to this place soon. Am truly surpirse to see the badeks being associated with the Thais. From the pics the top half sure looks Bugis, with the "pitol grip" like handle, and one is clearly a sewah, with the typical handle and blade with a "ferrule" made one with the blade. But the bottom half are a lot more golok or "pisau" (Knife) looking. Sadly the keris pictures are not that good, and althoguh there are a few Bugis pieces, they seems not to have a typical Bugis handle, only from the sheath we see the Bugis feature. The ones at the top appears longer, but surely not Bugis, and has more Javanese looking sheaths, but if the length is more than 2 feet, than they cud be Balinese, but then again the fittings and especially the handle is not Balinese. Biggest surprise is not to see either a Tajong or a Coteng!!! Maybe you did not took any pictures?? Very interesting indeed, and wish I have the time to go there in the near future, but have a trip planned elsewhere already. Thanks Khun Deng for the splendid infos, and wish the photos are more clearer, but nonetheless, you and the wife did a good "007" job taking it.

5th December 2004, 05:00 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I visited the Royal Palace and this museum about 5 years ago. Tremendous number of interesting swords but total lack of any academic information (unlike, say, Topkapi) and absolutely appalling condition. Virtually all exponates are exibited "in the open", and some are stored in flimsy glass cages. The doors to the exhibition rooms lead straight outside and are wide open; there is no climate control and the heat/humidity are unbearable. It was a mystery to me how these blades still retained their form and not disintegrated into small piles of rust. Most blades were covered with dark-brown or reddish layers of rust and the wooden/ivory handles had nasty-looking stains on them. It was sad to look at and very difficult to understand why didn't the Royal family take better care of the national heritage.....

5th December 2004, 10:52 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Great pictures, Dan. The number of blades there is just amazing. I, too, am of course appalled at their condition. I imagine climate control in Bangkok is not an easy proposition, however. Still, I image that the royal family has sufficient funds to at least do something. Perhaps we can be the catalyst? Who knows? We just need to push ahead with our research, cultivate the contacts you have made, and show them that we are sincere. Hopefully there will be a chnage in attitude.

6th December 2004, 02:02 AM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Wow. Dan, thank you so much for sharing this with us. I'm blown away by the number of swords there. The condition doesn't excite me, but those photos certainly do. With nearly every post you make, I'm more and more grateful for your work, and simultaneously frustrated by my personal lack of time. You rock! Best, Andrew