LOHAR - Solving The Mistery

wolviex · 31st October 2006, 05:32 PM

Thank you very much and welcome back!
It might be! but don't forget that border between weapons and utilitary tools is often very thin. One will use something as flail on his farm while his neighbour will add some brass inlay or few nails making nice or dangerous looking weapon. I didn't follow your thread on 'Lohar' nor I met with such weapons by myself, so I can't tell anything about them, it's just my overall thought about weapons and their origins or later modifications.
Regards!

Radu Transylvanicus · 31st October 2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

it's just my overall thought about weapons and their origins or later modifications.
Regards!

Wolviex, my dear brother, thank you. Being from Eastern Europe we both now that very well. Peasant uprisings is what I mean of course! I am just not "crickey" with the idea of putting a sledge hammer, a sickle or a pitchfork in a war panoply or a arms and armour album. But youre right there are also cleavers, axes and staffs which some of them were created with war in mind or at least to partly serve as weapon from the start. As long as they were created with serving as weapon, even partly, in mind, I am cool with it. Hold a Lohar in hand and you know its not

Emanuel · 31st October 2006, 07:55 PM

Hello Radu and all,

Not to throw a wrench into what is kown about the lohar and to confuse matters further, but here is a short clip - from the movie Exils - that shows an Algerian percussion instrument (likely Kabyle) that uses a drum-stick very similar to the lohar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzmbTCQxHMw
it is used in conjunction with a regular drum-stick.
I'm sorry but the view of the instrument in the clip is the only one in the movie...I've tried researching this instrument further, but haven't fount anything yet. I hope this isn't entirely irrelevant.

Best regards,
Emanuel

Radu Transylvanicus · 31st October 2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello Radu and all,

Not to throw a wrench into what is kown about the lohar and to confuse matters further, but here is a short clip - from the movie Exils - that shows an Algerian percussion instrument (likely Kabyle) that uses a drum-stick very similar to the lohar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzmbTCQxHMw
it is used in conjunction with a regular drum-stick.
I'm sorry but the view of the instrument in the clip is the only one in the movie...I've tried researching this instrument further, but haven't fount anything yet. I hope this isn't entirely irrelevant.

Best regards,
Emanuel

Hello Emanuel,

No pun intended, but I say you are drawing in a wee bit of confusion here. Here is what you should look for, its a wooden drum stick no relation to the matter IMHO. Common throughout North Africa and not only, made of wood or bone.
http://www.motherlandmusic.com/sticks&beaters.htm
You dont poke a drum with a sharp point metal ice pick.

Emanuel · 31st October 2006, 09:00 PM

Hi Radu,
Fair enough, just the shape of the drumstick really struck me when I saw it and brought the lohar to my mind.
Ah, thanks for the link...and I didn't realize it was wooden...some lohar I held had a very blunt point, almost fully rounded. The edge underneath was practically nonexistent on one example.
All the best,
Emanuel

Montino Bourbon · 31st October 2006, 09:12 PM

Are used by many tribes. Some look like an 'L', and some look like a check mark. The normal African talking drum is played with that sort of stick.

Don't use a 'lohar' for that!

Bill M · 1st November 2006, 01:50 AM

Don't take a lohar to a gun fight. Nor a knife fight. Nor a sword fight -- unless they are serving iced sugar drinks. Only then will you and your lohar be appreciated.

Sugar or ice? Why not? Never could understand how they were used anyhow.

But really, Radhu, could it be that you or your friend are joking? I have one with silver koftgari. Pretty fancy -- and a bit too sharp for a kids toy.

The blade does not look like it would take an awful lot of icepicking. pretty heavy but tapering to a rather thin point.

I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall?

VANDOO · 1st November 2006, 03:17 AM

THE LOHAR I HAVE HANDLED WOULD MAKE A BETTER WEAPON THAN AN ICE PICK OR ICE SHAVER. THE COMMON ICE PICK IS MUCH EASIER TO CARRY AND QUITE CAPABLE OF EASILY SEPARATEING A 500 POUND BLOCK OF ICE INTO SMALLER CHUNKS. I HAD TWO RELATIVES WHO RAN LARGE ICE HOUSES BACK EAST AND SAW HOW FAST THE ICE MEN COULD MAKE THE PROPER SIZE AND WEIGHT OF ICE BLOCK TO FILL THE ORDER. THE ICE SHAVERS I HAVE SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD USUALLY WORK ON THE PRINCIPAL OF A WOOD PLANE BUT ARE DESIGNED FOR ICE INSTEAD. IF THE LOHAR IS THE AFAGHAN VERSION OF THE COMMON ICE PICK I WONDER WHAT THE ICE TONGS THEY USE TO CARRY LARGE BLOCKS OF ICE LOOK LIKE THEY MUST BE VERY IMPRESSIVE.

I ALSO WONDER HOW MANY ICE HOUSES THEY HAVE OVER THERE AND HOW POPULAR SNOW CONES AND BLOCKS OF ICE ARE AND HOW FAR BACK IN HISTORY THEY HAVE BEEN MADE AND CONSUMED. LOHARS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A VERY LONG WHILE AND ARE SURELY THE WORLDS MOST DECORATED, FANCY DANGEROUS LOOKING ICE PICK IF THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

I WONDER IF SOMEONE IS HAVING THEIR LEG PULLED OR IF THAT TRULY IS THEIR USE IN AFGANISTAN? IN ANY CASE I WOULD MUCH PREFER A REGULAR ICE PICK AND ICE SHAVER TO TRYING TO DO IT WITH A LOHAR.

I WILL WAIT UNTIL BETTER PROOF THAN THE WORD OF ONE PERSON IS AVAILABLE BEFORE I AM CONVINCED THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN WRONG ALL THESE YEARS. A INTERESTING IDEA BUT ONE WHICH I WON'T PUT MUCH CREDENCE IN AT PRESENT WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF.
THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS ON THIS POST I DO NOT INTEND TO ATTACK ANYONE.

RSWORD · 1st November 2006, 03:36 AM

The question I have in regards to the ice pick theory is how long have big blocks of ice been available in markets on a large enough scale that required a specialized tool such as the Lohar.(not to be confused with The Google) Maybe as long as refrigeration has been around? Are there any provenanced examples of Lohar dating back to 19th century? Would such an early example lend credence to the lohar having some prior function that later evolved into an ice pick when it had become obsolete in its original design?

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st November 2006, 07:19 PM

[QUOTE=VANDOO]THE LOHAR I HAVE HANDLED WOULD MAKE A BETTER WEAPON THAN AN ICE PICK OR ICE SHAVER. THE COMMON ICE PICK IS MUCH EASIER TO CARRY AND QUITE CAPABLE OF EASILY SEPARATEING A 500 POUND BLOCK OF ICE INTO SMALLER CHUNKS. I HAD TWO RELATIVES WHO RAN LARGE ICE HOUSES BACK EAST AND SAW HOW FAST THE ICE MEN COULD MAKE THE PROPER SIZE AND WEIGHT OF ICE BLOCK TO FILL THE ORDER. THE ICE SHAVERS I HAVE SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD USUALLY WORK ON THE PRINCIPAL OF A WOOD PLANE BUT ARE DESIGNED FOR ICE INSTEAD. IF THE LOHAR IS THE AFAGHAN VERSION OF THE COMMON ICE PICK I WONDER WHAT THE ICE TONGS THEY USE TO CARRY LARGE BLOCKS OF ICE LOOK LIKE THEY MUST BE VERY IMPRESSIVE.

I ALSO WONDER HOW MANY ICE HOUSES THEY HAVE OVER THERE AND HOW POPULAR SNOW CONES AND BLOCKS OF ICE ARE AND HOW FAR BACK IN HISTORY THEY HAVE BEEN MADE AND CONSUMED. LOHARS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A VERY LONG WHILE AND ARE SURELY THE WORLDS MOST DECORATED, FANCY DANGEROUS LOOKING ICE PICK IF THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

I WONDER IF SOMEONE IS HAVING THEIR LEG PULLED OR IF THAT TRULY IS THEIR USE IN AFGANISTAN? IN ANY CASE I WOULD MUCH PREFER A REGULAR ICE PICK AND ICE SHAVER TO TRYING TO DO IT WITH A LOHAR.

I WILL WAIT UNTIL BETTER PROOF THAN THE WORD OF ONE PERSON IS AVAILABLE BEFORE I AM CONVINCED THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN WRONG ALL THESE YEARS. A INTERESTING IDEA BUT ONE WHICH I WON'T PUT MUCH CREDENCE IN AT PRESENT WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF.
THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS ON THIS POST I DO NOT INTEND TO ATTACK ANYONE.[/QUOTE]

Pace your enthusiasm , capitalised letters

I too doubt there were ice thongs too , Vandoo, but I believe in the ice pick idea! I have a feeling when they chopped the ice blocks from the glaciers edge on the mountains they used different picks and techniques then at the bottom in the valley inside the market or at home. Probably not even the same person the iceman vs. the market person. Its a big difference when you chop a two hundred lbs. block of ice or when you pick for a cone, a daily's worth or shave some ice. You cant give a bone cleaver to an eye surgeon

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st November 2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

But really, Radhu, could it be that you or your friend are joking? I have one with silver koftgari. Pretty fancy -- and a bit too sharp for a kids toy.

The blade does not look like it would take an awful lot of icepicking. pretty heavy but tapering to a rather thin point.
I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall?

Exactly, in the late times most of them were made exactly to be used as wall ornaments he did say that! By Afghans themselves and obviously many found their way out once travelers observed "the mysterious object" and loved the souvenir.

tom hyle · 4th December 2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall?

I doubt that. More likely because they were meant to be worn on a body, where only one side shows. It is a common (of course not universal) practice for blades to have a front decorated side and a back plain side. On saxes it was quite prominent, and it is also seen frequently on earlier modern European kitchen knives (which are marked and spine-swedged from the thumb side; medieval ones were often grooved and inlayed on the same side only.) and swords (commonly marked from the hand side, if on one side only. Machetes have often been deliberately marked as knives). Only one side shows when you're wearing one.
The ice/candy pick seems realistic, and I don't know that in preindustrial environments ice and candy would be considered a domain of children.
As for an icepick as a weapon; that's pretty much all they're currently known as in N America.

31st October 2006, 09:12 PM	#6
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	curved sticks for drums... Are used by many tribes. Some look like an 'L', and some look like a check mark. The normal African talking drum is played with that sort of stick. Don't use a 'lohar' for that!

1st November 2006, 01:50 AM	#7
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Don't take a lohar to a gun fight. Nor a knife fight. Nor a sword fight -- unless they are serving iced sugar drinks. Only then will you and your lohar be appreciated. Sugar or ice? Why not? Never could understand how they were used anyhow. But really, Radhu, could it be that you or your friend are joking? I have one with silver koftgari. Pretty fancy -- and a bit too sharp for a kids toy. The blade does not look like it would take an awful lot of icepicking. pretty heavy but tapering to a rather thin point. I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall? Last edited by Bill Marsh; 1st November 2006 at 02:02 AM.

1st November 2006, 07:19 PM	#10
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	[QUOTE=VANDOO]THE LOHAR I HAVE HANDLED WOULD MAKE A BETTER WEAPON THAN AN ICE PICK OR ICE SHAVER. THE COMMON ICE PICK IS MUCH EASIER TO CARRY AND QUITE CAPABLE OF EASILY SEPARATEING A 500 POUND BLOCK OF ICE INTO SMALLER CHUNKS. I HAD TWO RELATIVES WHO RAN LARGE ICE HOUSES BACK EAST AND SAW HOW FAST THE ICE MEN COULD MAKE THE PROPER SIZE AND WEIGHT OF ICE BLOCK TO FILL THE ORDER. THE ICE SHAVERS I HAVE SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD USUALLY WORK ON THE PRINCIPAL OF A WOOD PLANE BUT ARE DESIGNED FOR ICE INSTEAD. IF THE LOHAR IS THE AFAGHAN VERSION OF THE COMMON ICE PICK I WONDER WHAT THE ICE TONGS THEY USE TO CARRY LARGE BLOCKS OF ICE LOOK LIKE THEY MUST BE VERY IMPRESSIVE. I ALSO WONDER HOW MANY ICE HOUSES THEY HAVE OVER THERE AND HOW POPULAR SNOW CONES AND BLOCKS OF ICE ARE AND HOW FAR BACK IN HISTORY THEY HAVE BEEN MADE AND CONSUMED. LOHARS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A VERY LONG WHILE AND ARE SURELY THE WORLDS MOST DECORATED, FANCY DANGEROUS LOOKING ICE PICK IF THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE. I WONDER IF SOMEONE IS HAVING THEIR LEG PULLED OR IF THAT TRULY IS THEIR USE IN AFGANISTAN? IN ANY CASE I WOULD MUCH PREFER A REGULAR ICE PICK AND ICE SHAVER TO TRYING TO DO IT WITH A LOHAR. I WILL WAIT UNTIL BETTER PROOF THAN THE WORD OF ONE PERSON IS AVAILABLE BEFORE I AM CONVINCED THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN WRONG ALL THESE YEARS. A INTERESTING IDEA BUT ONE WHICH I WON'T PUT MUCH CREDENCE IN AT PRESENT WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF. THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS ON THIS POST I DO NOT INTEND TO ATTACK ANYONE.[/QUOTE] Pace your enthusiasm , capitalised letters I too doubt there were ice thongs too , Vandoo, but I believe in the ice pick idea! I have a feeling when they chopped the ice blocks from the glaciers edge on the mountains they used different picks and techniques then at the bottom in the valley inside the market or at home. Probably not even the same person the iceman vs. the market person. Its a big difference when you chop a two hundred lbs. block of ice or when you pick for a cone, a daily's worth or shave some ice. You cant give a bone cleaver to an eye surgeon Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 1st November 2006 at 07:35 PM.

31st October 2006, 05:32 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you very much and welcome back! It might be! but don't forget that border between weapons and utilitary tools is often very thin. One will use something as flail on his farm while his neighbour will add some brass inlay or few nails making nice or dangerous looking weapon. I didn't follow your thread on 'Lohar' nor I met with such weapons by myself, so I can't tell anything about them, it's just my overall thought about weapons and their origins or later modifications. Regards!

31st October 2006, 07:55 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Radu and all, Not to throw a wrench into what is kown about the lohar and to confuse matters further, but here is a short clip - from the movie Exils - that shows an Algerian percussion instrument (likely Kabyle) that uses a drum-stick very similar to the lohar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzmbTCQxHMw it is used in conjunction with a regular drum-stick. I'm sorry but the view of the instrument in the clip is the only one in the movie...I've tried researching this instrument further, but haven't fount anything yet. I hope this isn't entirely irrelevant. Best regards, Emanuel

31st October 2006, 09:00 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Radu, Fair enough, just the shape of the drumstick really struck me when I saw it and brought the lohar to my mind. Ah, thanks for the link...and I didn't realize it was wooden...some lohar I held had a very blunt point, almost fully rounded. The edge underneath was practically nonexistent on one example. All the best, Emanuel

1st November 2006, 03:17 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE LOHAR I HAVE HANDLED WOULD MAKE A BETTER WEAPON THAN AN ICE PICK OR ICE SHAVER. THE COMMON ICE PICK IS MUCH EASIER TO CARRY AND QUITE CAPABLE OF EASILY SEPARATEING A 500 POUND BLOCK OF ICE INTO SMALLER CHUNKS. I HAD TWO RELATIVES WHO RAN LARGE ICE HOUSES BACK EAST AND SAW HOW FAST THE ICE MEN COULD MAKE THE PROPER SIZE AND WEIGHT OF ICE BLOCK TO FILL THE ORDER. THE ICE SHAVERS I HAVE SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD USUALLY WORK ON THE PRINCIPAL OF A WOOD PLANE BUT ARE DESIGNED FOR ICE INSTEAD. IF THE LOHAR IS THE AFAGHAN VERSION OF THE COMMON ICE PICK I WONDER WHAT THE ICE TONGS THEY USE TO CARRY LARGE BLOCKS OF ICE LOOK LIKE THEY MUST BE VERY IMPRESSIVE. I ALSO WONDER HOW MANY ICE HOUSES THEY HAVE OVER THERE AND HOW POPULAR SNOW CONES AND BLOCKS OF ICE ARE AND HOW FAR BACK IN HISTORY THEY HAVE BEEN MADE AND CONSUMED. LOHARS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A VERY LONG WHILE AND ARE SURELY THE WORLDS MOST DECORATED, FANCY DANGEROUS LOOKING ICE PICK IF THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE. I WONDER IF SOMEONE IS HAVING THEIR LEG PULLED OR IF THAT TRULY IS THEIR USE IN AFGANISTAN? IN ANY CASE I WOULD MUCH PREFER A REGULAR ICE PICK AND ICE SHAVER TO TRYING TO DO IT WITH A LOHAR. I WILL WAIT UNTIL BETTER PROOF THAN THE WORD OF ONE PERSON IS AVAILABLE BEFORE I AM CONVINCED THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN WRONG ALL THESE YEARS. A INTERESTING IDEA BUT ONE WHICH I WON'T PUT MUCH CREDENCE IN AT PRESENT WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF. THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS ON THIS POST I DO NOT INTEND TO ATTACK ANYONE.

1st November 2006, 03:36 AM	#9
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	The question I have in regards to the ice pick theory is how long have big blocks of ice been available in markets on a large enough scale that required a specialized tool such as the Lohar.(not to be confused with The Google) Maybe as long as refrigeration has been around? Are there any provenanced examples of Lohar dating back to 19th century? Would such an early example lend credence to the lohar having some prior function that later evolved into an ice pick when it had become obsolete in its original design?