Interesting Flyssa

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2006, 03:52 PM

I agree entirely with what Ham has, as always, very astutely observed.
It seems that the flyssa is one of a number of relatively late arrivals in the world of edged weapons, with another very similar (recalling years of debate) with unclear associations, being the so called 'Black Sea yataghan'.

Probably the earliest known examples of the Kabyle sword known as the 'flyssa' (for the Berber tribe associated with producing them, the Iflissen), are from c.1820's. The familiar examples often found today typically are of the form seen from c.1850's and usually have the brass stylized zoomorphic hilt and the blade inlaid with the characteristic geometric forms. The scroll type motif on this blade is notably atypical of Berber design, as has been noted.

It would seem that the Ottoman presence in North Africa clearly accounts for the influence in numerous weapon forms, particularly the flyssa, and it seems generally held that it did in fact evolve from earlier forms of yataghan with straight blade and deep belly at cutting point.

This example seems to be an excellent representation of the confluence of these distinct weapon forms. The presence of the many Caucasians in North Africa within the Ottoman sphere may account for the seemingly related horned yataghans that appear to be recurved cousins of the flyssa and as mentioned are commonly termed 'Black Sea yataghans'. While these curved swords, also deep bellied and with the needle point of the flyssa, are widely known throught Anatolia and Transcaucasia, there is at least one example of these with geometric North African markings (Tirri).
(here goes the hornets nest!!!

Seriously, I hope this doesnt draw out that really, really old tirade again...but it seemed important to illustrate the close associations of these forms.

All the best,
Jim

Oriental-Arms · 30th October 2006, 04:49 PM

Hi Jim and all others.

I am intrigued by this thread. I can not say I am convinced with the statement that the Flyssa is evolved from the Yataghan (I am not trying to open a new debate like the similar one mentioned above) Evolution in such a short period of time of several hundred years only, should have left in the Flyssa some characteristics of its forefathers: Be it blade shape, or handle shape or balance of blade, or mode of use or even general dimensions. I can not find any of these above. Furthermore, The Flyssa distribution is quite limited to a rather small Geographical area and people, whereas the Ottoman empire spread all over the place, so why it was evolved to another form of sword only in one place?? Also, we are all familiar with Yataghans (In a classical Yataghan shape) Coming from Algier and Tunis, so both an evolved version and a none evolved version were leaving side by side?? The answer may be yes to all and I would love to hear more and change my mind.

To add to my confusion, I am holding a Yataghan, with a classical blade shape and eared handle and length and weight, but the scabbard is wood, carved in a very similar and typical Flyssa scabbard carving, even with the belt loop identical. So I wonder where this one came from (Unfortunately the scabbard of this one was badly attacked by worms and it is under restoration now. It will take some time before I would be able to post photos)

Emanuel · 30th October 2006, 05:07 PM

Hello,
Ariel posted a similar yataghan a while ago http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=flyssa

Such occurances were mentioned by Camille Lacoste-Dujardin in "Sabre Kabyles, Etude des Flissa du Musée de l'Homme", Journal de la Société des Africanistes, XXVIII, 1958. Particularly, she observes that imported Ottoman yataghan blades were re-fitted in Algiers and Oran with local Kabyle scabbards. Some yataghan blades were even forged locally by smiths who had travelled and worked in the empire.

This makes me wonder...by the time Kabyles were importing classical yataghan blades, they were using their own scabbards...so why would they possess an indigenous scabbard form if not for an indigenous sword?

Jim and Ham, could you provide Ottoman carvings similar to those on this sword or some reference concerning them?

Regards,
Emanuel

Oriental-Arms · 30th October 2006, 05:13 PM

This is indeed the same Yataghan. I will gladly post photos when restoration is completed.

Zifir · 30th October 2006, 05:27 PM

This might be totally irrelevant and the quality of the picture is very bad. The guy in the picture seems to have a very long and distinctive type of yatagan, if it is a yatagan and I am not making it up. Any opinions?

Tim Simmons · 30th October 2006, 05:43 PM

It might be that many of these weapons with such mixed influences are from much older forms pan mediterranean/black sea. With examples developing local and national flavour and given different names. Modify the shape of the blade only slightly especially with the more knife sized examples and they could come from almost anywhere in the regions mentioned. Only the scabbards, handles and decoration hinting as to who used them.

Valjhun · 30th October 2006, 09:57 PM

Well, it surprises me that anybody brought it up yet, but i have a similar example in my collection wich was discussed here some time ago.

It is definetly a weapon of the same type, but lacking in decoration. and it is definetly an old flyssa! Ham, the pictures above could be deciving. The determinant factor is the tang.Yataghans have a full and wide tang, wich flyssas have not. Look at the notch on the backedge, another typical flyssa sign.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=flyssa

Manolo, have you got it? I saw it too, but forgot to bid (as usually)

, NICE ONE!

30th October 2006, 04:49 PM	#2
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Yataghan / Flyssa Hi Jim and all others. I am intrigued by this thread. I can not say I am convinced with the statement that the Flyssa is evolved from the Yataghan (I am not trying to open a new debate like the similar one mentioned above) Evolution in such a short period of time of several hundred years only, should have left in the Flyssa some characteristics of its forefathers: Be it blade shape, or handle shape or balance of blade, or mode of use or even general dimensions. I can not find any of these above. Furthermore, The Flyssa distribution is quite limited to a rather small Geographical area and people, whereas the Ottoman empire spread all over the place, so why it was evolved to another form of sword only in one place?? Also, we are all familiar with Yataghans (In a classical Yataghan shape) Coming from Algier and Tunis, so both an evolved version and a none evolved version were leaving side by side?? The answer may be yes to all and I would love to hear more and change my mind. To add to my confusion, I am holding a Yataghan, with a classical blade shape and eared handle and length and weight, but the scabbard is wood, carved in a very similar and typical Flyssa scabbard carving, even with the belt loop identical. So I wonder where this one came from (Unfortunately the scabbard of this one was badly attacked by worms and it is under restoration now. It will take some time before I would be able to post photos)

30th October 2006, 05:13 PM	#4
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	North African Yatghan in Flyssa scabbard This is indeed the same Yataghan. I will gladly post photos when restoration is completed.

30th October 2006, 05:27 PM	#5
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	This might be totally irrelevant and the quality of the picture is very bad. The guy in the picture seems to have a very long and distinctive type of yatagan, if it is a yatagan and I am not making it up. Any opinions? Attached Images

30th October 2006, 09:57 PM	#7
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well, it surprises me that anybody brought it up yet, but i have a similar example in my collection wich was discussed here some time ago. It is definetly a weapon of the same type, but lacking in decoration. and it is definetly an old flyssa! Ham, the pictures above could be deciving. The determinant factor is the tang.Yataghans have a full and wide tang, wich flyssas have not. Look at the notch on the backedge, another typical flyssa sign. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=flyssa Manolo, have you got it? I saw it too, but forgot to bid (as usually) , NICE ONE! Attached Images

30th October 2006, 03:52 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I agree entirely with what Ham has, as always, very astutely observed. It seems that the flyssa is one of a number of relatively late arrivals in the world of edged weapons, with another very similar (recalling years of debate) with unclear associations, being the so called 'Black Sea yataghan'. Probably the earliest known examples of the Kabyle sword known as the 'flyssa' (for the Berber tribe associated with producing them, the Iflissen), are from c.1820's. The familiar examples often found today typically are of the form seen from c.1850's and usually have the brass stylized zoomorphic hilt and the blade inlaid with the characteristic geometric forms. The scroll type motif on this blade is notably atypical of Berber design, as has been noted. It would seem that the Ottoman presence in North Africa clearly accounts for the influence in numerous weapon forms, particularly the flyssa, and it seems generally held that it did in fact evolve from earlier forms of yataghan with straight blade and deep belly at cutting point. This example seems to be an excellent representation of the confluence of these distinct weapon forms. The presence of the many Caucasians in North Africa within the Ottoman sphere may account for the seemingly related horned yataghans that appear to be recurved cousins of the flyssa and as mentioned are commonly termed 'Black Sea yataghans'. While these curved swords, also deep bellied and with the needle point of the flyssa, are widely known throught Anatolia and Transcaucasia, there is at least one example of these with geometric North African markings (Tirri). (here goes the hornets nest!!! Seriously, I hope this doesnt draw out that really, really old tirade again...but it seemed important to illustrate the close associations of these forms. All the best, Jim

30th October 2006, 05:07 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Ariel posted a similar yataghan a while ago http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=flyssa Such occurances were mentioned by Camille Lacoste-Dujardin in "Sabre Kabyles, Etude des Flissa du Musée de l'Homme", Journal de la Société des Africanistes, XXVIII, 1958. Particularly, she observes that imported Ottoman yataghan blades were re-fitted in Algiers and Oran with local Kabyle scabbards. Some yataghan blades were even forged locally by smiths who had travelled and worked in the empire. This makes me wonder...by the time Kabyles were importing classical yataghan blades, they were using their own scabbards...so why would they possess an indigenous scabbard form if not for an indigenous sword? Jim and Ham, could you provide Ottoman carvings similar to those on this sword or some reference concerning them? Regards, Emanuel

30th October 2006, 05:43 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	It might be that many of these weapons with such mixed influences are from much older forms pan mediterranean/black sea. With examples developing local and national flavour and given different names. Modify the shape of the blade only slightly especially with the more knife sized examples and they could come from almost anywhere in the regions mentioned. Only the scabbards, handles and decoration hinting as to who used them.