Interesting Flyssa

[ham]

Actually it is a yatagan. This form of blade is unusual but known, as is the integral bolster. As to dating, much more difficult to say. Yatagans remained in use in parts of the Ottoman Empire into the 20th century though this probably dates in the first half of the 19th. Eastern Anatolia judging from the decoration, grips look to have been replaced at some point. Nice example.

Ham

[Emanuel]

Hello Ham,
Thanks for the clarification. How interesting that this yataghan looks so much like a flyssa...for one thing the almost fully straight spine strongly recalls the flyssa...I've got to study these in more depth.
Emanuel

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ham

Actually it is a yatagan. This form of blade is unusual but known, as is the integral bolster. As to dating, much more difficult to say. Yatagans remained in use in parts of the Ottoman Empire into the 20th century though this probably dates in the first half of the 19th. Eastern Anatolia judging from the decoration, grips look to have been replaced at some point. Nice example.

Ham

Looks like Flyssa to me. The blade is heavier than most, but the configuration ( widening blade with sharp point) is typically Flyssa-like. I am unaware of Yataghans with such sharp point. The incisions look quite deep, but this may be an illusion of a close pic, and the motives look N. African to me. Are you basing your conclusion on the pommel? It does look eared, but the handle is a replacement, as you noticed.
Similar example from Artzi's "sold" index:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=545
I apologize if I was not allowed to post it.

[ham]

I hope from this example that some at least, have realised that the flyssa is a development off the yatagan, specialised as a cavalry weapon both for cutting and thrusting.

Ham

[Emanuel]

So this particul example would be a virtual "prototype" for the flyssa? It's nearly identical to the classic flyssa form...in that case, the whole weapon style would be attributed to Anatolia, not Algeria, would it not?
Are there more confirmed examples of this?

I still think it's a flyssa...and I'm still intrigued by the carving. And the grips are similar to those on this example http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=flyssa Replaced or original, they're still reminiscent of the brass camel head on finer flyssa like the one from Oriental-Arms.

Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

I agree entirely with what Ham has, as always, very astutely observed.
It seems that the flyssa is one of a number of relatively late arrivals in the world of edged weapons, with another very similar (recalling years of debate) with unclear associations, being the so called 'Black Sea yataghan'.

Probably the earliest known examples of the Kabyle sword known as the 'flyssa' (for the Berber tribe associated with producing them, the Iflissen), are from c.1820's. The familiar examples often found today typically are of the form seen from c.1850's and usually have the brass stylized zoomorphic hilt and the blade inlaid with the characteristic geometric forms. The scroll type motif on this blade is notably atypical of Berber design, as has been noted.

It would seem that the Ottoman presence in North Africa clearly accounts for the influence in numerous weapon forms, particularly the flyssa, and it seems generally held that it did in fact evolve from earlier forms of yataghan with straight blade and deep belly at cutting point.

This example seems to be an excellent representation of the confluence of these distinct weapon forms. The presence of the many Caucasians in North Africa within the Ottoman sphere may account for the seemingly related horned yataghans that appear to be recurved cousins of the flyssa and as mentioned are commonly termed 'Black Sea yataghans'. While these curved swords, also deep bellied and with the needle point of the flyssa, are widely known throught Anatolia and Transcaucasia, there is at least one example of these with geometric North African markings (Tirri).
(here goes the hornets nest!!!
Seriously, I hope this doesnt draw out that really, really old tirade again...but it seemed important to illustrate the close associations of these forms.

All the best,
Jim

[Oriental-Arms]

Hi Jim and all others.

I am intrigued by this thread. I can not say I am convinced with the statement that the Flyssa is evolved from the Yataghan (I am not trying to open a new debate like the similar one mentioned above) Evolution in such a short period of time of several hundred years only, should have left in the Flyssa some characteristics of its forefathers: Be it blade shape, or handle shape or balance of blade, or mode of use or even general dimensions. I can not find any of these above. Furthermore, The Flyssa distribution is quite limited to a rather small Geographical area and people, whereas the Ottoman empire spread all over the place, so why it was evolved to another form of sword only in one place?? Also, we are all familiar with Yataghans (In a classical Yataghan shape) Coming from Algier and Tunis, so both an evolved version and a none evolved version were leaving side by side?? The answer may be yes to all and I would love to hear more and change my mind.

To add to my confusion, I am holding a Yataghan, with a classical blade shape and eared handle and length and weight, but the scabbard is wood, carved in a very similar and typical Flyssa scabbard carving, even with the belt loop identical. So I wonder where this one came from (Unfortunately the scabbard of this one was badly attacked by worms and it is under restoration now. It will take some time before I would be able to post photos)

[Emanuel]

Hello,
Ariel posted a similar yataghan a while ago http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=flyssa

Such occurances were mentioned by Camille Lacoste-Dujardin in "Sabre Kabyles, Etude des Flissa du Musée de l'Homme", Journal de la Société des Africanistes, XXVIII, 1958. Particularly, she observes that imported Ottoman yataghan blades were re-fitted in Algiers and Oran with local Kabyle scabbards. Some yataghan blades were even forged locally by smiths who had travelled and worked in the empire.

This makes me wonder...by the time Kabyles were importing classical yataghan blades, they were using their own scabbards...so why would they possess an indigenous scabbard form if not for an indigenous sword?

Jim and Ham, could you provide Ottoman carvings similar to those on this sword or some reference concerning them?

Regards,
Emanuel

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ham

I hope from this example that some at least, have realised that the flyssa is a development off the yatagan, specialised as a cavalry weapon both for cutting and thrusting.

Ham

I, for one, never realized that flyssa is a development of a yataghan. Yataghans have recurved blades, flyssas have straight back and variable degree of widening/narrowing of the edge , but I do not think they can be called "recurved".
I've never seen a mention or a theory that the two were closely related.
Can you provide reference, please?