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29th October 2006, 02:25 AM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
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So, Chris and Greg, as the most knowledgeable "metal" people around, here is the question to summarize all questions: is there a real practical, combat advantage of wootz over a good steel? I am not talking about super-duper modern steels , but want to compare apples to apples: take a 17-18th century wootz shamshir or khanda (made by the best masters of the time)and pit it against best contemporary European blades.
Assuming the task set for all of them is not a show-y handkercief cutting, but a real battle use by competent cavalry men, will there be an appreciable difference in performance? What advantages or disadvantages would you predict for each? |
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29th October 2006, 04:15 AM
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#2 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 685
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ariel,
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Trying to extract a black and white judgement out of metallurgists on a subject like this, is like pulling the proverbial hen's teeth. As opposed to laymen, we are aware of too many variables that can have an effect and as such we are reluctant to commit ourselves. With that said, in my student days, almost half a century ago ( Blast - just gave the game away!), wootz was often mentioned as an early example of a superior steel that was held in extraordinarily high regard in Europe. Disclaimer: I am writing this on the run, and could easily have left something out, so please don't shoot - OK? If you truly were comparing apples with apples, then you would take the sword out of the mix and just compare a large number of test specimens, so as to be representative of what could be expected on average, made from wootz and Euro steel from a given time frame (worked/heat treated to the degree that it would be in the sword) and test it for: a) Hardness (macro and micro); b) Tensile strength; c) Impact (Charpy/Izod); d) Establish the brittle trans temp; e) Hardenability f) Chemical analysis: These would give you the basic properties -Then, you would have to do additional tests to see which of the steels is easier to forge or shape, and which is more unforgiving of its heat treatment. With all that out of the way, you would then have to relate all this information to the sword's design and intended application, and most importantly to the availability of a skilled workforce. For example, a purely thrusting sword, such as a smallsword, is only expected to be a decent spring and not snap if flexed. The point does not require any out of the ordinary qualities. If however, the sword is of a lightish cut type, then the plot thickens, depending on what you intended to cut into: Military uniforms, semi naked tribal warriors in Africa or Asian armour. My own gut feeling tells me that the variability of the steels of the olden days was so great, that on the whole, wootz was probably the better steel to start out with, though I hasten to add that it could be easily ruined during forging. So I'll stick my neck right out and take a chance: In all probability, the very best wootz swords were better than the very best Euro equivalents, though this did not necessarily translate into a military advantage. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and the same applies to armies. The best cavalry sword is little use if you cannot secure large supplies at an affordable price, and if there is a shortage of horses, then you climbed the wrong tree. To my mind, the whole secret of the unparalleled success of Europe in war, is attributable to a general disregard for excellence and instead a more pragmatic concern for the lowest common denominator, which was better than of her rivals. I hope that I have not muddied the waters too much. Cheers Chris |
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29th October 2006, 11:49 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy
Posts: 123
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Quote:
As discussing about cutting heavy chains, men in full armor and gun barrels or birds feathers I'm under the STRONG impression it is only a way to dismiss wootz. These are obviously exagaggerations, hypes that ALL and EVERY culture had in its heritage. There is no way to say from armchair or on a gym-based fencing knowledge if wootz cuts better then eurosteel and/or if it was a merely eye-candy. A deep comparative analysis of the contents of the steels can give us an idea about the components and properties of the steel, but NOBODY can talk about the smiths skillfullness without having cut with such weapons. If you wantn't rely on historical (???) accounts you should make your own database. Japaneses had made their own cutting experiments even destroying very valuable weapons (see picture/captions below, a hundred thousand dollars today...) to test reliability of swords under every aspect (the picture refers to -60° C tests for brittleness in the '30, good for another topic elsewhere here, I believe). Want to say if a great wootz blade cuts better then a great euro one ? This forum has plentiful supply of antique dealers. Buy a bunch of swords of both type, learn how to correctly use them and try on a historically correct target (the target topic only would request a lot of study). There is no other way to have definitive evidences. Everthing other are armchair speculations. Test by Omura Kunitaro Reference: Nagoya Shinbun, Nagoya Shinbunsha, February, Showa 12 Shumi no Token Kenmasube, Omura Kunitaro, May, Showa 8 Nihonto no Kantei to Kenma, Omura Kunitaro and Fukunaga Suiken, June 1st, Showa 50. 1) Norimitsu katana, ni-ji mei, Sue Bizen kazu uchi mono, bent upon a single cut. (This blade was the first tested and it was at normal room temperature ) 2) Norimitsu katana, (Blade from test 1) After it was conditioned to -60 ° C, it was broken when struck. 3) Tadamitsu katana, Bishu Osafune Tadamitsu, Meiou 3rd year 2 month day, a well made sword with horimono, conditioned under -60 ° C, broken when struck. 4) Masaiye tanto signed Mihara ju Masaiye, era Choroku , conditioned under -60 ° C, bent and large ha-gire when struck. 5) Yamato-mono katana, mumei, Oei period, conditioned under -60 ° C, bent and large ha-gire when struck. 6) Muramasa tanto, mumei, 2nd generation, conditioned under -60 ° C, bent when struck. 7) Mino-mono wakizashi, mumei, Oei period, conditioned under -60 ° C, bent when struck. 8) Morimasa wakizashi, Bishu Osafune Morimasa, Oei 21 year 2 month day, conditioned under -60 ° C, big and deep shinae occurred on the ji when struck. 9) Mihara-mono katana, mumei, Tenbun period, conditioned under -10 ° C bent with three large ha-gire when struck. One of these ha-gire caused the blade to break. 10) Sue Shimada-mono tanto, mumei, conditioned under -60 ° C broken when struck. 11) Shinto Seki mono, mumei, heavy and thick tanto, conditioned under -15 ° C broken, one big mune gire and three ha-gire when struck. 12) Signed and dated gendai tanto, by Toukoto in mid autumn of Showa 11, modern steel alloy of Tungsten and Molybdenum, conditioned under -60 ° C bent when struck. |
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29th October 2006, 02:32 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 189
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Quote:
 Not the only way to have a good idea of wootz's value, though - you could try to convince one of the few smiths making wootz today to do 2 identical blades, one in wootz and one in steel made from bloomery metal, and do empirical tests. (edit - even better, have him make charpy bars and really get quantifiable  )One way would require a lot of swords to even out the effects of different edge geometry, heat treatments, etc., the other is suspect 'cause it's just one datum, but either would get you closer to the answer. 
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29th October 2006, 07:53 PM
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#5 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy
Posts: 123
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Strange that no such a smith posts here... |
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29th October 2006, 08:24 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
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Quote:
BTW, in one of your earlier posts there was a picture of a helmet cutting test. Was the helmet real? Having seen that pic as well as the horror of "Sword testing", I seem to begin changing my opinion about Japanese reverence for their cultural objects  As for yor drinking taste, I am disappointed... I am giving you a way out: try Peruvian Pisco: it's their version of Grappa, but the grapes are different. One glass and you look like that... |
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29th October 2006, 08:28 PM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy
Posts: 123
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 if it makes such a magic i've to try it. Still waiting your explanation about how the heck wootz steel can delaminate... |
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29th October 2006, 03:08 PM
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
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Carlo,
All of us are armchair specialists, yourself included (no offence). The age of chivalry is gone, swords are obsolete as weapons and nobody's life depends on the quality of his Katana, Shamshir or Shashka. Some of us still want to feel a small fraction of the thrill of sword wielding and cut empty Coke bottles, styrofoam noodles or green bamboo stalks in what they think is a "keeping of tradition". My kids, when they were little, fought dandelions in the backyard with plastic swords ( I did the same when I was their age  ), and I see very little difference in the motivation and the enthusiasm of a 5 year-old with a sword from Toy-R-US in a backyard and a 40 year-old with a custom-made katana in a Dojo. Neither should be embarrassed in the least.It's just a game, no more. I would view practical tests that you suggest using an Assadollah's Shamshir or Masamune's Katana as acts of vandalism, akin to testing the durability of Rafael's paints by pouring acid on the canvas. This thread was about examining legends of wootz swords possessing almost magical qualities. We can use contemporary knowledge of metallurgy and what little actual info we have. The old accounts of incredible cutting feats seem to be exaggerated ( as Lee wisely mentioned, they are seen in all cultures, in all times, and are best suited to campfire chats). We shall never (hopefully!) be so dumb as to plan any practical tests. The money you mentioned is only a minor factor: it is the destruction of the object of art that would hopefully stop us from committing the folly. Until then, let kids behead dandelions, grown men pretend being samurai or vikings, metalworkers make better and better blades , with Kirk, without Kirk, this hardness, that resilience to cold temperatures, and then all of us can sit in our comfy armchairs with a glass of Grappa or beer and swap stories. |
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29th October 2006, 06:07 PM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
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BTW, here is an example of what can happen to wootz.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0731&rd=1&rd=1 Look at the very first picture: very big area of delamination. |
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29th October 2006, 06:44 PM
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#10 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,658
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29th October 2006, 06:46 PM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Arabia
Posts: 278
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That seems like a fatigued edge.
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29th October 2006, 07:12 PM
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#12 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy
Posts: 123
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Quote:
Last edited by tsubame1; 29th October 2006 at 08:13 PM. |
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29th October 2006, 07:10 PM
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#13 | |||
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Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy
Posts: 123
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But it was militarism and trianny that leadd to suc a moronish usage not the nedd for knowledge. Artzi will never give you an Assadollah for such a test, for sure, no matter how much you're friends... I prefer sakč rather then grappa. Chill and preferably by Ozeki factory (it's dry...)
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