Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

BSMStar · 12th February 2005, 04:31 AM

Rick,

I respect you opinion, but it seems everyone claims to have a meteorite pamor on eBay... do I trust them all as a resource? Please keep in mind, I would not know a real pamor Prambanan if it jumped up and bit me.

nechesh · 12th February 2005, 05:12 AM

Hey Wayne, i think that with a wink and a grin, Rick is only kidding. EBay shows us the worst of the "media hype" around meteoric keris pamor. Many people actually believe their own hype, some are deceivers, but the bottom line is that there are just not all that many prambanan pamors to be found out there.
On the question of how do we tell, i think the real experts have been very reserved on this issue. They will tell you, i suspect, i believe or it's possible this keris might have meteoric pamor, but if there is a sure way to tell, i have not heard of it.

Rick · 12th February 2005, 04:10 PM

Yep !
I was kidding .

IMO if people who have spent many decades studying keris cannot ( or will not ) tell then what chance does the layman have of discerning the difference .

fearn · 12th February 2005, 04:27 PM

My guess, based on the little I know of metallurgy, is that the only way you could conclusively identify meteoric material in a forged blade is by atomic analysis, which means cutting a piece off the blade and looking at elemental composition and the isotopic ratios of the elements present.

Even this wouldn't be conclusive, because I don't think an entire Kris would be made of meteoric iron, simply the lighter colored layers, and even these might have been amalgammated with terrestrial iron to make them workable.

I have no idea how much metal would be needed, but aside from cutting off the tip of the tang, I'm not sure how you would sample much without seriously damaging the blade. Nor am I sure how much it would cost. It's the kind of thing where I would go to a university geochemistry (or materials science) lab and have a long chat with a professor about departmental donations, papers, and the like. Someone might be receptive to testing a number of "meteoric" blades, if the money was there at the beginning and the opportunity to publish a paper appeared at the end....

Jens Nordlunde · 12th February 2005, 04:43 PM

It sounds right what you write about the test, only a professor would probably love it if you can guarantee him that at least one of the blade is of meteoric iron – the problem is no one seems to be able to

Jens

nechesh · 12th February 2005, 05:14 PM

I think fearn hit the nail on the head. The only way to be positive would involve the distruction of the keris.

Personally i'd rather just keep wondering. Is the keris beautiful, does it feel good in your hand, do you love it? Life needs to hold on to a few of it's mysteries to keep it interesting. Talk to the blade and it will tell you. Do you really need to prove it to anyone else?

BSMStar · 13th February 2005, 04:54 AM

I do not believe that the test has to be totally destructive. A small area can be "polished" and tested with an Electron Micro Probe... that will give you a chemical analysis good enough to determine cosmic origin. I really would not want to do it to my high end Keris. Also, the rub is getting it done.

Hey folks, I'm new. (Note to self... be slightly skeptical

)

OK. That's what I basically understood from the thread Rick brought up and other comments. But as a pamor, is there a specific "pattern" to pamor Prambanan (like other pamors) or is it time for me to give up?

12th February 2005, 04:31 AM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	eBay as a research resource... Rick, I respect you opinion, but it seems everyone claims to have a meteorite pamor on eBay... do I trust them all as a resource? Please keep in mind, I would not know a real pamor Prambanan if it jumped up and bit me.

13th February 2005, 04:54 AM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Electron Micro Probe... I do not believe that the test has to be totally destructive. A small area can be "polished" and tested with an Electron Micro Probe... that will give you a chemical analysis good enough to determine cosmic origin. I really would not want to do it to my high end Keris. Also, the rub is getting it done. Hey folks, I'm new. (Note to self... be slightly skeptical ) OK. That's what I basically understood from the thread Rick brought up and other comments. But as a pamor, is there a specific "pattern" to pamor Prambanan (like other pamors) or is it time for me to give up?

12th February 2005, 05:12 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Wayne, i think that with a wink and a grin, Rick is only kidding. EBay shows us the worst of the "media hype" around meteoric keris pamor. Many people actually believe their own hype, some are deceivers, but the bottom line is that there are just not all that many prambanan pamors to be found out there. On the question of how do we tell, i think the real experts have been very reserved on this issue. They will tell you, i suspect, i believe or it's possible this keris might have meteoric pamor, but if there is a sure way to tell, i have not heard of it.

12th February 2005, 04:10 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Yep ! I was kidding . IMO if people who have spent many decades studying keris cannot ( or will not ) tell then what chance does the layman have of discerning the difference .

12th February 2005, 04:27 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	My guess, based on the little I know of metallurgy, is that the only way you could conclusively identify meteoric material in a forged blade is by atomic analysis, which means cutting a piece off the blade and looking at elemental composition and the isotopic ratios of the elements present. Even this wouldn't be conclusive, because I don't think an entire Kris would be made of meteoric iron, simply the lighter colored layers, and even these might have been amalgammated with terrestrial iron to make them workable. I have no idea how much metal would be needed, but aside from cutting off the tip of the tang, I'm not sure how you would sample much without seriously damaging the blade. Nor am I sure how much it would cost. It's the kind of thing where I would go to a university geochemistry (or materials science) lab and have a long chat with a professor about departmental donations, papers, and the like. Someone might be receptive to testing a number of "meteoric" blades, if the money was there at the beginning and the opportunity to publish a paper appeared at the end....

12th February 2005, 04:43 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It sounds right what you write about the test, only a professor would probably love it if you can guarantee him that at least one of the blade is of meteoric iron – the problem is no one seems to be able to Jens

12th February 2005, 05:14 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I think fearn hit the nail on the head. The only way to be positive would involve the distruction of the keris. Personally i'd rather just keep wondering. Is the keris beautiful, does it feel good in your hand, do you love it? Life needs to hold on to a few of it's mysteries to keep it interesting. Talk to the blade and it will tell you. Do you really need to prove it to anyone else?