Tachi versus katana in horseback fighting

[Rivkin]

Gentlemen,

There is little to nothing reliable information available on early mongol warriors. The "pony" story is basically due to Marco Polo and those who based their description on his account. Archeological evidence of early mongol army was scarse, especially since so much was barbarically destroyed after the 1917 revolution in Russia due to the anti-weapon laws.

David Ayalon in his three part work on Mamluks extensively addresses the little information we have on differences and relationship between mamluks and mongols. It seems that earlier mamluks (Baibars) considered themselves to be part of Jelal-al-Din turkoman party that fought against mongols. However after Ayn-Jalat the feelings relax quickly to the point that Qalawun declares in his letter to french king "we and mongols are one nation". He also addresses such issues as language (uighur vs. kipchaq), yasa vs. fiqh and so on.

One should also mention that the depictions of mongol army differ greatly to the point that one must accept that it was composed from very different units of many different people (I remember that Il-Khanid chief commanders at different points were a jew and a nestorian christian, or the story of red haired georgian cavarly from kartlis tzhvoreba), resulting in a rather diverse fighting force. It seems that however their archery was of a different style than that of kipchaqs/mamluks - they used lighter, often biologically "poisoned" arrows and where somewhat more concerned with the rate of fire (even though mamluk standards of aimed fire of 3 arrows per two seconds seem to be rather impressive).
Concerning short stature - it is a rather controversial point. One should address Gorelik's work on mongols and steppe armies for this, but in a short version there is a lot of sources that "noble" steppe people, like "white turks" where of colossal stature

[Philip]

Equine Museum of Japan -- that's a place I need to visit. By the way, did you know the Japanese, like the French and Belgians, like to eat horse meat? A friend brought back some horse jerky from Japan. Most Americans would think it is gross, I like it though. Cheval a la tatare is popular with those who can afford it. There aren't as many horses per capita in Japan so the meat is rather expensive. (Sorry guys for wandering off post, I can't resist talking about food!)

Thanks for the list of horse breeds. Are your pics in the same order as you list them in the text?

Some of the breeds in the photos are quite diminutive. I say that because recently I was studying some pictures of military officers in the imperial army of Vietnam during the 19th cent. Their horses are really short of stature. I don't know how the breeds common to SE Asia may be related to the ones we're talking about, Japan and north Asia. I'm not a zoologist, unfortunately, but am fascinated by the role of animals in human history.

[Chris Evans]

Hi,

1. I would like to add that one of the first things that the Japanese army did during the Meiji restoration was to import foreign war horse blood stock, and when they galloped off onto the battle fields of Korea, China and Manchuria, it wasn't on the native breed.

2. tsubame1. Thanks for posting those pictures. Do you know when they were painted? The one on the left looks 19th century... I have a painting, I believe from the Kamakura era, that depicts a samurai afoot, with a two handed grip on his tachi, so they were essentially a two handed sword as I said at the outset, though they could be used with one hand. However, as a Japanese expert explained to me, who was very conversant with Euro sabres, it is very difficult to effectively wield a Japanese sword with one hand (the hilt!) and this is why Musashi's advice was not taken up all that enthusiastically.

Cheers
Chris

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

2. tsubame1. Thanks for posting those pictures. Do you know when they were painted? The one on the left looks 19th century... I have a painting, I believe from the Kamakura era, that depicts a samurai afoot, with a two handed grip on his tachi, so they were essentially a two handed sword as I said at the outset, though they could be used with one hand. However, as a Japanese expert explained to me, who was very conversant with Euro sabres, it is very difficult to effectively wield a Japanese sword with one hand (the hilt!) and this is why Musashi's advice was not taken up all that enthusiastically.

I'm not specialized in painting, I'm specialized in weaponry. If you have transmitted your suggestions to your japanese friend, being the Tachi used with two hands from horseback, you should have been already advised of your error by him.
More, even if the pictures are affectively (not late) Edo products, I would suggest that being the Edo the period of Katana, if the artist was in error in his depiction, as you tacitly suggest in your statement, he would have been portraied the horseman with a two-handle grip rather then the single-hand one. This is, IMHO, a further evidence that they were and are well aware
on how a Tachi was used *by horse*.

And now, to stop this mirror-climb you're making, you force me to remember that the responsibility of proving your assertion is yours.
As seems you'r familiar with Kamakura-era paintings, likely worthing thousand of dollars, please post a Kamakura Era picture depicting a Samurai cutting
with a Tachi using a both-hands grip from horseback.

[Chris Evans]

tsubame1

I made two assertions, both in the context of this great big world and not that of isolated Japan;

a) The Japanese sword makes a lousy cavalry weapon; and
b) they did not understand cavalry.

You objected to this, but so far apart from obviously not liking my assertions, keep on reiterating that the Japanese did what they did because that is all they needed. This does not amount to any kind of serious argument or support for your objection.

The very fact the Japanese discarded their native sword and horse in their cavalry once it caught up with that of the rest of the world, in the 19th century, and that nobody else either saw fit to adopt their sword or horse when cavalry was at in its golden age, despite adopting the Central Asian curved sabre is proof enough of my view. The onus is still with you to prove the opposite. And to labour the painfully obvious, how the Japanese fought amongst themselves, isolated from the rest of the world is irrelevant in this discussion, save to undesrcore the fact that they never grasped the potential of cavalry.

And there I rest my case.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi,


1. These are the swords that the modernized Japanese cavalry opted for:

http://hometown.aol.com/machood/meiji.html

2. This is what a Meiji era cavalryman looked like when mounted.

3. Here is an interesting thread re Japanese cavalry in pre modern times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Nagashino


Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi,

And this is how a 19th century Central Asian Tartar horse soldier looked like on his Mongol pony.

Cheers
Chris

[Valjhun]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi,
2. This is what a Meiji era cavalryman looked like when mounted.

This is not Meiji, but rather showa....

I'm following this debate with interest. It would be great to hear what Rich has to say.

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Philip

Equine Museum of Japan -- that's a place I need to visit. By the way, did you know the Japanese, like the French and Belgians, like to eat horse meat? A friend brought back some horse jerky from Japan. Most Americans would think it is gross, I like it though. Cheval a la tatare is popular with those who can afford it. There aren't as many horses per capita in Japan so the meat is rather expensive. (Sorry guys for wandering off post, I can't resist talking about food!)

Thanks for the list of horse breeds. Are your pics in the same order as you list them in the text?

Some of the breeds in the photos are quite diminutive. I say that because recently I was studying some pictures of military officers in the imperial army of Vietnam during the 19th cent. Their horses are really short of stature. I don't know how the breeds common to SE Asia may be related to the ones we're talking about, Japan and north Asia. I'm not a zoologist, unfortunately, but am fascinated by the role of animals in human history.

Yes Philip, the pictures are in the same order as captions, even if two are
side-by-side due to the format of the page, I assume. Those have to be read as RIGHT one first. I think that the horses are of different age and that the lack of a common scale for the pictures makes us not able to correctly
get the real dimensions.
Yes, horse meat is expensive, as bovine one. This get us back to the lack
of space for breeding and the need to have robust breeds able to grow in
mountain or anyway hard environment being the better plains used to feed
humans.
There is a 7th type of breed I've not posted because
there is room for only 6 attachments per post.
As you are intrested I attach it hereunder :

Misaki breed :