Mysterious sword from Elgood's book

[Philip]

Gentlemen:
Unfortunately Elgood's glossary doesn't illustrate an example of this "chirkas", but do you have in mind the sabers without any type of guard, with a knife-like handle with no pommel cap which has become associated with the emirate of Bukhara? Note the 2 examples in T. Flindt's "Some Nineteenth Century Arms from Bukhara" in Elgood (ed), ISLAMIC ARMS AND ARMOUR, Scolar Press 1979.

I have made note of the design of these two, plus the several in the Moser collection catalogued by E. Rohrer in "Die Waffen aus Turkestan" in JAHRBUCH DES BERNISCHEN HISTORISCHEN MUSEUMS IN BERN, xxvii. Jahrgang (Bern: K. J. Wyss, 1946), two or three in the Museum of Oriental Cultures in Moscow, plus several which I have owned and others in private collections, and can come to this conclusion:

This Central Asian saber is not likely to be derived from or related to the Caucasus shashka. I enumerate the following points:

1. The "szabla bukharska" generally has a blade whose width expands just before it meets the handle. (sometimes the effect is subtle because of repeated sharpening, but even in such cases the change in width is apparent when you compare the edge and spine contours) Occasionally, the edge widens out to a short blunted area or "ricasso", a feature seen on many Indian talwars and Afghan puluoar blades. The shashka's curve or contour at the edge tends to maintain a more constant relationship to that of the spine, and a prominent ricasso is generally absent.

2. Bukharska tips are generally more acute than the more deeply radiused edge at the average shashka's point.

3. The hilt of a shaskha is invariably "cleft" with a deep V notch between two "ears" at the pommel. Bukharska hilts are solid and don't expand into these big ears.

4. The mouth of the bukharska scabbard never swallows the hilt of the sword like the majority of shashka scabbards do. The slightly wedge-shaped "nose" of the blade bolster nests in a shallow V shaped cutout in the mouth of the scabbard.

If you look at the closest weapon that incorporates all 4 of the above features which are characteristic of these Turkestan sabers, you come up with ..... the Persian pesh kabz. Imagine that you can inject a curved bladed pesh kabz with steroids, and massage it just a little bit, and you can see how these sabers could come about.

5. Another thing comes to mind: Shashkas for the most part seem to be universally long, the blades generally over 31 inches (unless damaged and re tipped). I have noted a large proportion of bukharskas that tend to be on the short side, well under 30 inches. The shashka is of course a horseman's weapon, so length is important. The peoples of Turkestan had cavalry forces too, but in states such as Bukhara, Samarqand, and Khiva, the rulers fielded infantry forces as well. Admittedly, we do not have complete information yet about the use of these sabers; Herr Rohrer states that the exact manner of attaching the scabbard to the wearer's body was not known. So, further research is needed.

Anyway, this is my two cents' worth of theory, based on empirical observations of weapons design and construction, not on etymology or history. Someone else can surely use data from the other two fields, as has been done in previous posts, to argue something else. That's the fun of this business, isn't it?

[Rivkin]

I think Baburname can not offer us anything new on Shashka/Buchara sabre relationship, something we I think will discuss many more times .

What I was trying to do by my post if first of all bring examples of trade relationships in the region and how armour and weapons from one place would get to the other place.
The second thing was something I have been trying to do for a very long time - with Ottoman empire we destinguish between Syrian, Balkan, Trabzon, Anatolian styles, not even to mention the whole african aspect. With tiny Georgia we see the differences between the west and the east, between Imerethi and Tbilisi.
But when it comes to colossal Persian Empire all we see in museums is "persian shamshir, XVIIIth century", or "Zand sword" or "Safavid sword", or may be something with such vague as Aryan. I think we need to put extra effort to be way more precise than this. Where it was made ? Is it characteristic for a certain part of Persia or for a certain tribe ?
And here is a good example - if we believe in the source we can reasonably state that the armour of Shah Abbas was made in Circassia. While it is no part of Persia, it nevertheless makes our knowledge of Persian armour more specific. Hopefully one day we will be able to identify weapons and patterns specific for Azeris, Kurds, Georgians, Armenian swordmakers, Arabs and so on and so on.

[ariel]

Check on this thread: BI posted pics of Bukharan "shashkas" as described by Phillip
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=911
And I posted an "Afghani shashka" that has some of the above characteristics as well
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2695
I completely agree with Rivkin: we tend to lump all Persian or Central Asian swords together.
But just look at garden variety Afghani Khyber knives: there are several variants of handles obviously coming from different areas/tribes. I would not encorage anybody to go there these days for a field research tour But we should keep it in mind.

[Philip]

Dear Ariel and Rivkin
You guys are both so correct -- under the umbrella of an entity such as "Qajar Iran" are different peoples with distinct cultural differences. Everybody thinks of "Persia" as being nothing but native Farsi-speaking "Aryans". But you have Kurds, Baluchs, various other tribal groups, plus the folks from Meshhed who are part descended from Mongols. The material culture, including the arms they made or used, must have had subtle differences. I sense this from costume and carpet design, so why not weapons? Yes, we need more research.

Do either of you have Manouchehr's new book on Persian arms? Does it address such points about cultural subtypes within Persia? I haven't ordered my copy yet, I hope it's a good book and worth the money. I respect your opinions so please tell me.

Thanks for posting pics of the "Afghani shashkas". I had not included those in my exposition, I focused only on bukharskas. But interesting to see that the afghanskas do have the ricasso at the forte, but their pommel ears are split just as on the Caucasian models.

[ariel]

Here is an Afghani/Uzbeki Shashka that just ended.
We have seen them before , but here is just another example: Repetitio mater studiorum est ( repetition is a mother of learning)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=018

[Zifir]

I saw this sword a while ago in a turkish auction site. The seller was claiming that this was not a shashka but a janissary sword. And saying that the grip still had the waxed ribbon which was used to prevent the slipping of the weapon from user's hand. Any opinions?

[Philip]

No, I don't think this is a "janissary sword". The hilt form is a classic Caucasian-style shashka. The plain horn is a simple type used by the commoners, not the chieftains. Also, this style of plain horn grip was officially adopted by the Russians on their "Caucasian pattern" enlisted man's shashka, Model 1904 (see Eugene Mollo, RUSSIAN MILITARY SWORDS 1801-1917, London: Historical Research Unit 1969, p. 39, also see A. N. Kulinsky, RUSSKOYE KHOLODNOYE ORUZHIYE: VOENNYKH, MORSKICH, I GRAZHDANSKICH CHINOV, 1800-1917g, St Petersburg, Magik Press 1994, pp 88-89).

However, the blade on this example doesn't match the 1904 regulation. It appears to be a military saber blade of common type from some Western country. Without dimensions and notes on markings, it's difficult to place it in terms of country or unit. From its style it looks 19th cent, thru early 20th. The slender profile, broad fuller, and prominent ricasso are key identifying characteristics as European/British/American, factory made of common military style.