Bringing out an oldy for comment

Rick · 21st October 2006, 08:27 PM

Why would the marks be on the keris if it did not start life as a file?
If that isn't a remnant of the cross grooves and points of a file then what could it be ?

A vise ?

Would the scenario proposed in my previous post be doable ?
I am no smith .

Alam Shah · 21st October 2006, 11:05 PM

Lew,

Thanks for the clearer picture.

The blade's diamond cross-section should extend all the way to the base of the blade. In this example, it seems that the thickness is not enough to form the base properly, which is approximately 1/2" or 1.5cm (it does vary).

This is how the base should look like for this type of blade.
(Example, courtesy of BluErf's gallery.

)
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

From the first picture, there seems to be no sign of a temper.

Example of a 'visible' tempered blade, (courtesy of BluErf's). A two-toned finish.
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

Kind Regards,
Shahrial

BluErf · 22nd October 2006, 08:46 AM

Congrats to Lew for having such a beautiful Keris pandai saras.

I think this is a Pattani keris, judging from the hilt style and the greneng.

I think this is still a 'san-mai' construction keris, with the softer steel outer layers sandwiching a harder steel core. There is a difference in the surface condition (different extent of pitting) of the cutting edge and the central body.

The outer soft steel layer could have been made from a file, in my opinion, because of the cross-hatching on the central portion of the base, and on the high point of the gandik.

Alam Shah · 22nd October 2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

... The outer soft steel layer could have been made from a file, in my opinion, because of the cross-hatching on the central portion of the base, and on the high point of the gandik.

Hmmm... I think initially the file might be shaped via 'stock removal' method, and later maybe heat-treated(?) but not the entire blade. Perhap an etch could reveal the etch mark, as kai suggested.

A question. How the high-point on the gandik was constructed and shaped?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

... I think this is still a 'san-mai' construction keris, with the softer steel outer layers sandwiching a harder steel core..

Another question. If it is sandwiched, why wasn't the base of the blade also sandwiched?

BluErf · 22nd October 2006, 06:30 PM

Perhaps close-up pics of the edge would confirm the construction of the keris.

The base of the keris should be sandwiched, just that the softer outer layer completely envelopes the harder steel core. Not surprising, since the maker will have to fashion the greneng, kembang kacang, jalen, etc. Would make a whole lot sense to work on the softer material. Check out one of my keris pandai saras. The harder steel core only shows well above the base the blade.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

Lew · 22nd October 2006, 07:09 PM

I took the blade out is some good light and there is a dark line an 1/8 th of an inch wide running down the the length of the blade's edge so this is similar to san mai sorry but I can only see this when the blade is at a certain angle it will be very hard to capture it in a photo. So if this is san mai the use of a file as an outer skin is unlikely files were fully hardened in the 19th and early 20th century so I still think this was squished in a vise at some time. Btw where the diamond cross section ends is higher and thicker than where you see the cross hatch marks so I think that kills the file not being thick enough theory. So vise marks is now the most likely culprit

Lew

The Double D · 22nd October 2006, 08:00 PM

If those marks are from a vise jaw then the entire surface of them should be flat. Those marks appear to me to be incised. The only only type of vise jaw that could have made those marks are a vice jaw made from a file.

21st October 2006, 11:05 PM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	More or less... a file beginning... Lew, Thanks for the clearer picture. The blade's diamond cross-section should extend all the way to the base of the blade. In this example, it seems that the thickness is not enough to form the base properly, which is approximately 1/2" or 1.5cm (it does vary). This is how the base should look like for this type of blade. (Example, courtesy of BluErf's gallery. ) http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php From the first picture, there seems to be no sign of a temper. Example of a 'visible' tempered blade, (courtesy of BluErf's). A two-toned finish. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php Kind Regards, Shahrial Last edited by Alam Shah; 22nd October 2006 at 05:22 AM. Reason: grammar...

22nd October 2006, 07:09 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I took the blade out is some good light and there is a dark line an 1/8 th of an inch wide running down the the length of the blade's edge so this is similar to san mai sorry but I can only see this when the blade is at a certain angle it will be very hard to capture it in a photo. So if this is san mai the use of a file as an outer skin is unlikely files were fully hardened in the 19th and early 20th century so I still think this was squished in a vise at some time. Btw where the diamond cross section ends is higher and thicker than where you see the cross hatch marks so I think that kills the file not being thick enough theory. So vise marks is now the most likely culprit Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 22nd October 2006 at 07:55 PM.

22nd October 2006, 08:00 PM	#7
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	If those marks are from a vise jaw then the entire surface of them should be flat. Those marks appear to me to be incised. The only only type of vise jaw that could have made those marks are a vice jaw made from a file. Last edited by The Double D; 23rd October 2006 at 06:04 AM.

21st October 2006, 08:27 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Why would the marks be on the keris if it did not start life as a file? If that isn't a remnant of the cross grooves and points of a file then what could it be ? A vise ? Would the scenario proposed in my previous post be doable ? I am no smith .

22nd October 2006, 08:46 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Congrats to Lew for having such a beautiful Keris pandai saras. I think this is a Pattani keris, judging from the hilt style and the greneng. I think this is still a 'san-mai' construction keris, with the softer steel outer layers sandwiching a harder steel core. There is a difference in the surface condition (different extent of pitting) of the cutting edge and the central body. The outer soft steel layer could have been made from a file, in my opinion, because of the cross-hatching on the central portion of the base, and on the high point of the gandik.

22nd October 2006, 06:30 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Perhaps close-up pics of the edge would confirm the construction of the keris. The base of the keris should be sandwiched, just that the softer outer layer completely envelopes the harder steel core. Not surprising, since the maker will have to fashion the greneng, kembang kacang, jalen, etc. Would make a whole lot sense to work on the softer material. Check out one of my keris pandai saras. The harder steel core only shows well above the base the blade. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php