Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

Jens Nordlunde · 10th February 2005, 09:46 PM

Hi BSMStar,

I think the links you are giving are very fascinating, and somewhat surprising to me, I have not read it all yet, but they seem very interesting.
To me it seems, the more I read, the less I understand – but maybe someone else is more clever than I am – hopefully.
I am at the moment involved in another problem which is very tricky, and which takes a lot of my time.
Thanks for the links.

Jens

BSMStar · 10th February 2005, 11:12 PM

My apologies, Jens

In my zeal to show references (other than my bad memory), and in trying to keep to the basics... I do not wish to overwhelm anyone who is not ready for the info, some of my post may or may not be as helpful as intended (maybe a little to basic). Sorry.

What I was trying to say and show... the only real source for "nickel-iron" (that which is already combined) would have a cosmic source, like a meteorite. The mining literature from the Luwu area suggest separate nickel and iron ores... unless someone else knows and can post a source on a non-cosmic source, I would be most interested in learning about it.

I think karma, fate, chance, circumstances or what ever term you want to use... placed a "workable" meteorite where it did and made the Keris a very special and unique weapon that it is.

nechesh · 11th February 2005, 05:33 AM

Sorry Wayne, but i'm afraid i have to disagree with you here. The keris would have been a special and unique weapon with or without the Prambanan meteorite, though certainly the possibility of pamor from the stars has increased that somewhat. But i think it is important that we dispell these meteorite myths somewhat. Yes, a certain amount of court pieces from the 19th and possibly early 20th century were made, but this is hardly the bulk or height of keris history. Still there are many folks out there who still believe that all keris were made this way. There are many keris, especially earlier ones that don't even use nickelous pamor, just various irons to create contrast in patterns. These keris are still special and unique.

BSMStar · 11th February 2005, 04:04 PM

nechesh,

Don't be sorry, the fault is mine. I know that I seem to suggest that only meteorites make the Keris "special" but... I fully agree with you!

It’s the pamor, and much, much more that makes the Keris so special. I was just referring to the one aspect that has been attached to the Keris... it's the pamor and meteorites that have separated the Keris from most weapons... which I believe is what started this thread.

Even not knowing the association with meteorites, who can gaze upon a wondrous Keris blade and not desire one? (I know the "bug" bit me bad!)

wolviex · 11th February 2005, 04:54 PM

Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade?

nechesh · 11th February 2005, 06:35 PM

Aye wolviex, there's the rub!

Rick · 11th February 2005, 06:41 PM

From the archives :

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html
Maybe some questions are answered here .

nechesh · 13th February 2005, 05:39 AM

Recently the work of the Polish metalurgist Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski has come to my attention. He has done considerable work in the analysis of keris structure. It is my understanding that even if you were to destroy a piece of a keris for analysis you would not be able to determine extra-terrestial origin after the materials have gone through the forging and welding process. Does anyone else know of any reputatable researcher who has actually worked on this subject that has a different answer to this question?
I find the concept of meteoric pamor to be very enticing like, i believe, most do. I certainly wouldn't mind owning a keris with such pamor. But i find the focus on this subject as relating to keris a bit troublesome. Why? So many reference books make mention of it, countless dealers lay claim to it in their keris. The facts as can best be sorted out is that meteoric pamor was used for a SELECT FEW keris beginning in the 19th century. So it was used for a relatively short period of time (100+yrs.) and even then it was far from the majority of keris being produced even in that century. It has done nothing to increase the artist level of keris making and though i can see why it might increase the spiritual value of a keris, this attribute of the blade did not begin nor end with the use of such a pamor material. I guess what i am driving at is that meteoric pamor is quite a bit over-valued as an aspect of keris study. It becomes a distraction of sorts. And unfortunately, unless it is a recently made blade that you had a part in the making of, or a court blade with considerable provenence (few and far between), one can never know for sure whether it's "star metal" or not.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th February 2005, 11:10 AM

Wolviex wrote: Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade?

From the discussion it seems as if we can't be sure, but I did somewhere read that some could feel a prickle in the fingers when toutching meteoric iron. This does however not give any garantee as you can't prove that the blade is made of meteoric iron - besides I think that a strongly magbetic blade could/would give the same feeling.

Jens

BSMStar · 13th February 2005, 07:36 PM

nechesh,

Trace elements are a give away for cosmic origin... which is why chemical analysis is important. Yes... we can tell.

I find it troubling to use feel as a way to determine... since these blades are older and are likely to have been etched many times, where does the pattern or surface profile from etching fit in to this approach?

Is there no visually pattern reserved for this pamor?

Jens... I'm with you, more than a bit confussed.

I agree meteoritic pamor is not critical... but of historically importance and value.

Kiai Carita · 26th April 2005, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Sorry Wayne, but i'm afraid i have to disagree with you here. The keris would have been a special and unique weapon with or without the Prambanan meteorite, though certainly the possibility of pamor from the stars has increased that somewhat. But i think it is important that we dispell these meteorite myths somewhat. Yes, a certain amount of court pieces from the 19th and possibly early 20th century were made, but this is hardly the bulk or height of keris history. Still there are many folks out there who still believe that all keris were made this way. There are many keris, especially earlier ones that don't even use nickelous pamor, just various irons to create contrast in patterns. These keris are still special and unique.

I think there is evidence that meteorite pamor was used before the Prambanan meteorite was taken into the Keraton Surakarta as there is evidence of the trading of meteorite before the Prambanan pamor. Empus practised meditations which alowed them to find peices of metal and often Empus would travel collecting pieces of iron to make keris. The Dayak in Kalimantan also make the best mandau from batu bintang.

Meteorite is an important symbolic part of the keris and apart from the pangawak waja and the kelengan type of keris every Empu would try to have at least a little bit of meteorite in the mixture of the metals used in the pamor as a syarat. The pangawak waja and kelengan blades don't have any pamor for esoteric reasons before the material reasons. The Javanese had a metallurgy based on the feeling rasa of different irons and pamor materials and this knowledge and art is what governs the behaviour of the Empu.

The simple academic answer to the question of meteorite and keris is that the keris was invented by the Gods and brought to Java by Aji Saka from Hindustan and until the Dutch interference in the keris world the keris continued to develop in Java according to Javanese lore. One of the main changes in the javanese attitude towards the keris happened during the Great Depression when the Dutch pawn shops valued the well dressed and new keris higher than old and more magical but simply dressed tayuhan keris.

During the Majapahit empire the keris spread throughout South East Asia and developed into the weapon of the Malay world. The fall of Majapahit and the introduction of Islam and cannon developed the keris in different ways in different SEA regions but essentially it is a prayer and not a weapon.

Of course kerises have been used to kill and in some parts of SEA they are made to kill as well but the Java keris is never intended to kill. The instances when there has been a Java keris killing in history are remembered by the Javanese as mistakes, wrongs, and the event was unusual. One of the most common dapur of the keris, the Tilam Upih, often has a blade so thin that it would be close to useles as a stabbing weapon.

In fact the story of Aji Saka as recorded in the Javanese hanacaraka alphabet might give a clue as to why the keris is never meant to be used to kill in Java.

nechesh · 29th April 2005, 12:42 AM

Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct.

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct.

I think that material evidence in kerisology is not always possible or desireable as a keris is not a material weapon rather it is an esoteric weapon. Alot of what we know about keris comes from legend. Then there is the traditional esoteric practises of Javanese artist which is still kept and taught to apprentices by some people in Java. In the education of the Java poet / artist there are several meditations such as 'nggrayang raga' and 'ngraga sukma' and movement meditations like 'gerak nurani'. These meditations expand the senses and would allow a heavenly-pamor collector gather pieces of meteorite smaller than chicken eggs.

Kerises older than the Prambanan keris are also claimed by the families that own them to be made of meteorite pamor. Works by Mpu Singkir, Mpu Pitrang, Mpu Supa Mandrangi and other great Mpu are believed to use meteorite in the pamor. When the Prambanan meteorite fell everyone knew exactly what to do with it it was to make pamor.

Some people interviewed by the late Bambang Harsrinuksmo while compiling his Ensiklopedi Keris also said that until the Great Depression meteorite was for sale in the markets of Solo, Madiun, Yogya, Palembang in Sumatra and so on. Not all the pamor on the market was Prambanan pamor but all pamor was more valuable than gold. However, if it will please you, I will say that before the Prambanan meteor there is no evidence of the use of meteor in Java keris.

Salam Keris

nechesh · 29th April 2005, 08:05 PM

No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor?

The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case. I am not surprised to see that you have studied the late, great Harsrinuksmo. I am probably wasting my letters here, but the Harsrinuksmo's philosophy of keris is a relatively new one. This is not to say that it does not hold relative "truths", per se. But this system has not always been the way Javanese of viewed or used the keris. Elements of it perhaps, but not in total. This is not to say that it isn't "true" for you today. Joseph Cambell, the great compiler of comparative religion, once said that he never had a true mystical experience with the various religions he studied because he never invested himself completely enough in any one system of thought. Harsrinuksmo's writings are a system of thought on the keris and if one programs this system into the hard drive that is our brain it will undoubtably yield results in the use of the keris as a mystical tool. But i do believe that if we take certain "truths" of that system and examine them outside of the system itself that they will simply not hold up to the test. The same can probably be said for any of the worlds religions. Faith plays an important part in making these systems work. For you, the existence of meteoric pamor in your keris is an important symbolic part of your mystical system of the keris. But many of us on this forum are seeking facts, not faith. We follow logic, not dogma. So i ask that you please not be offended when some of us disagree with things you state that are for you a matter of faith. I would like to be able to accept your word for it, but i will continue to dig deeper.

10th February 2005, 09:46 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi BSMStar, I think the links you are giving are very fascinating, and somewhat surprising to me, I have not read it all yet, but they seem very interesting. To me it seems, the more I read, the less I understand – but maybe someone else is more clever than I am – hopefully. I am at the moment involved in another problem which is very tricky, and which takes a lot of my time. Thanks for the links. Jens

10th February 2005, 11:12 PM	#2
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	My apologies, Jens In my zeal to show references (other than my bad memory), and in trying to keep to the basics... I do not wish to overwhelm anyone who is not ready for the info, some of my post may or may not be as helpful as intended (maybe a little to basic). Sorry. What I was trying to say and show... the only real source for "nickel-iron" (that which is already combined) would have a cosmic source, like a meteorite. The mining literature from the Luwu area suggest separate nickel and iron ores... unless someone else knows and can post a source on a non-cosmic source, I would be most interested in learning about it. I think karma, fate, chance, circumstances or what ever term you want to use... placed a "workable" meteorite where it did and made the Keris a very special and unique weapon that it is.

11th February 2005, 05:33 AM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Wayne, but i'm afraid i have to disagree with you here. The keris would have been a special and unique weapon with or without the Prambanan meteorite, though certainly the possibility of pamor from the stars has increased that somewhat. But i think it is important that we dispell these meteorite myths somewhat. Yes, a certain amount of court pieces from the 19th and possibly early 20th century were made, but this is hardly the bulk or height of keris history. Still there are many folks out there who still believe that all keris were made this way. There are many keris, especially earlier ones that don't even use nickelous pamor, just various irons to create contrast in patterns. These keris are still special and unique.

11th February 2005, 04:04 PM	#4
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	nechesh, Don't be sorry, the fault is mine. I know that I seem to suggest that only meteorites make the Keris "special" but... I fully agree with you! It’s the pamor, and much, much more that makes the Keris so special. I was just referring to the one aspect that has been attached to the Keris... it's the pamor and meteorites that have separated the Keris from most weapons... which I believe is what started this thread. Even not knowing the association with meteorites, who can gaze upon a wondrous Keris blade and not desire one? (I know the "bug" bit me bad!)

11th February 2005, 04:54 PM	#5
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade?

11th February 2005, 06:35 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Aye wolviex, there's the rub!

11th February 2005, 06:41 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	From the archives : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html Maybe some questions are answered here .

13th February 2005, 05:39 AM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Recently the work of the Polish metalurgist Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski has come to my attention. He has done considerable work in the analysis of keris structure. It is my understanding that even if you were to destroy a piece of a keris for analysis you would not be able to determine extra-terrestial origin after the materials have gone through the forging and welding process. Does anyone else know of any reputatable researcher who has actually worked on this subject that has a different answer to this question? I find the concept of meteoric pamor to be very enticing like, i believe, most do. I certainly wouldn't mind owning a keris with such pamor. But i find the focus on this subject as relating to keris a bit troublesome. Why? So many reference books make mention of it, countless dealers lay claim to it in their keris. The facts as can best be sorted out is that meteoric pamor was used for a SELECT FEW keris beginning in the 19th century. So it was used for a relatively short period of time (100+yrs.) and even then it was far from the majority of keris being produced even in that century. It has done nothing to increase the artist level of keris making and though i can see why it might increase the spiritual value of a keris, this attribute of the blade did not begin nor end with the use of such a pamor material. I guess what i am driving at is that meteoric pamor is quite a bit over-valued as an aspect of keris study. It becomes a distraction of sorts. And unfortunately, unless it is a recently made blade that you had a part in the making of, or a court blade with considerable provenence (few and far between), one can never know for sure whether it's "star metal" or not.

13th February 2005, 11:10 AM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Wolviex wrote: Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade? From the discussion it seems as if we can't be sure, but I did somewhere read that some could feel a prickle in the fingers when toutching meteoric iron. This does however not give any garantee as you can't prove that the blade is made of meteoric iron - besides I think that a strongly magbetic blade could/would give the same feeling. Jens

13th February 2005, 07:36 PM	#10
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	nechesh, Trace elements are a give away for cosmic origin... which is why chemical analysis is important. Yes... we can tell. I find it troubling to use feel as a way to determine... since these blades are older and are likely to have been etched many times, where does the pattern or surface profile from etching fit in to this approach? Is there no visually pattern reserved for this pamor? Jens... I'm with you, more than a bit confussed. I agree meteoritic pamor is not critical... but of historically importance and value.

29th April 2005, 12:42 AM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct.

29th April 2005, 08:05 PM	#14
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor? The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case. I am not surprised to see that you have studied the late, great Harsrinuksmo. I am probably wasting my letters here, but the Harsrinuksmo's philosophy of keris is a relatively new one. This is not to say that it does not hold relative "truths", per se. But this system has not always been the way Javanese of viewed or used the keris. Elements of it perhaps, but not in total. This is not to say that it isn't "true" for you today. Joseph Cambell, the great compiler of comparative religion, once said that he never had a true mystical experience with the various religions he studied because he never invested himself completely enough in any one system of thought. Harsrinuksmo's writings are a system of thought on the keris and if one programs this system into the hard drive that is our brain it will undoubtably yield results in the use of the keris as a mystical tool. But i do believe that if we take certain "truths" of that system and examine them outside of the system itself that they will simply not hold up to the test. The same can probably be said for any of the worlds religions. Faith plays an important part in making these systems work. For you, the existence of meteoric pamor in your keris is an important symbolic part of your mystical system of the keris. But many of us on this forum are seeking facts, not faith. We follow logic, not dogma. So i ask that you please not be offended when some of us disagree with things you state that are for you a matter of faith. I would like to be able to accept your word for it, but i will continue to dig deeper.