Tricky Bugis Keris

VVV · 15th October 2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hi Michael. I have been sitting back waiting for more knowledgable members than me to comment on this keris. I would think that Kai Wee or Shahrial would have a word or two on this one.

Thanks all for your comments,

Of course I asked Kai Wee and Shahrial about the Keris before posting it here. But I was also waiting for them to comment it on the forum as we decided to continue the discussion here.
Somehow I am attracted to unusual Keris, which of course means that I now and then maybe acquire a Keris that is a mix for different reasons.
But it's also an interesting learning experience discussing it with more experienced collectors.
My knowledge on how to place Keris blades is minimal so I am happy to read the comments of those who do and try to learn more about it

Michael

David · 15th October 2006, 07:29 PM

Personally i don't see any Bugis influence in this blade. And the execution of the pamor seems very different from the Bugis/Malay examples shown even if the basic pamor type is the same. I don't think this blade was created by a Bugis smith.

A. G. Maisey · 15th October 2006, 11:50 PM

Gentlemen, I am not very often giving to making positive statements in respect of the origin of keris blades.

When we say that something is of one classification of blade or another, what we are doing is applying the Javanese tangguh system which relies on a number of indicators , many of which can only be applied with the blade in one`s hand. Because of this I am more often than not very hesitant to be at all positive about the origin of a blade, based upon what I can see in a picture.

Some blades can be very obvious, such as a big , smooth finish Balinese blade. Almost anybody can recognise these with just a passing glance. Similar with the classic straight Bugis blade---a glance as you walk past it, you know instantly what it is. For a person with extensive experience in handling Javanese/Madurese blades, recognition of a classic older Madurese blade is just as simple.

My teacher of the tangguh system was Empu Suparman Supowijaya, who was acknowledged as one of, if not the most knowledgeable man in Surakarta , which essentially means in Jawa, and thus the world, on the subject of tangguh. I studied under his tutelage for more than twelve years, and it took me about ten of those years to begin to understand how to apply the indicators used in making a classification of a blade. During that ten years I would have handled a minimum of at least 20,000 keris blades. In the years prior to this, and following my ten year "apprenticeship" I also handled about 2000 keris blades during each year. At the present time I am reasonably confident that the tangguh that I give a blade will be accepted by the majority of people in Central Jawa who do understand tangguh, as a reasonable classification of a blade. I say " majority of people", because decison on a tangguh is essentially a matter of applying certain standards to the indicators and forming an opinion which can be supported by reasoned argument against the standard of the accepted indicators. There will usually be a few people who do not agree.

In respect of the blade under discussion I have varied from my usual reluctance to give a positive tangguh.

Why have I done this?

The answer is simple:- I am absolutely positive that this blade conforms in all material respects to the indicators which will give it a tangguh of Madura.

However, as I have already pointed out, this is an opinion, and in this case that opinion is based upon what I can see in a photograph.I acknowledge the right of anybody at all to disagree with me, however, my decision in this matter is firm, and I stand by it.

Alam Shah · 16th October 2006, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The answer is simple:- I am absolutely positive that this blade conforms in all material respects to the indicators which will give it a tangguh of Madura.

However, as I have already pointed out, this is an opinion, and in this case that opinion is based upon what I can see in a photograph.I acknowledge the right of anybody at all to disagree with me, however, my decision in this matter is firm, and I stand by it.

Hi Alan, thank you for applying your vast experience and knowledge to this piece. Unlike yourself, I'm just an avid collector with very little experience. Pardon me for my apparent lack of knowledge.

But could the blade be Kalimantan made?

Could it be made by a Maduran empu/pande who had migrated to elsewhere, say South Kalimantan given the close proximity from Madura to Kalimantan?

Alam Shah · 16th October 2006, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Personally i don't see any Bugis influence in this blade. And the execution of the pamor seems very different from the Bugis/Malay examples shown even if the basic pamor type is the same. I don't think this blade was created by a Bugis smith.

Hi David,
I'm not implying that the keris blade is made by a Bugis empu. All I'm saying that it might be made for a Bugis, considering the fittings(?). And the form is not a typical blade, hence the difficulty in placing the origin. Btw, what influence did you see?

Alam Shah · 16th October 2006, 02:27 AM

Hi all,

Below is an example of a blade which was acquired in Borneo (Kalimantan) by the previous owner (blade only). Now in the possession of our forumite, John.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albur05/Blade1.jpg
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albur05/Blade.jpg

Notice the similarities in the greneng-work.
The pamor is also similar, except that John's piece does have finer worksmanship, imo.

Let's discuss...

To Michael,
Can we have a picture of your keris's pesi, please.

A. G. Maisey · 16th October 2006, 03:32 AM

Anything is possible.

However, when presented with a Madura keris, the balance of probability indicates that that keris was made in Madura.

Certainly it could have been made in Kalimantan, or anywhere else for that matter, but it is not probable that it was. Possible, yes, probable, no.

Tangguh is about establishing an applicable classification, based on comparison of indicators with certain fairly specific parameters. It is not necessarily about fixing origin of a blade at a certain time and place.It may indicate time and place of origin, but it does not necessarily have to do so.

A number of examples of other blades have been posted, but none of these blades look like a Madura blade.

However, this a matter of opinion. I have given my opinion, anybody else is perfectly entitled to a different opinion.

A. G. Maisey · 16th October 2006, 03:50 AM

For instance.

Where do you think these blades might have been made?

VVV · 16th October 2006, 08:09 AM

Here you are AlamShah.

Michael

Marcokeris · 16th October 2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For instance.

Where do you think these blades might have been made?

Are the blades your?

BluErf · 17th October 2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For instance.

Where do you think these blades might have been made?

These blades look like they came from the source that you normally get your kerises from.

There is a certain distinct feel to these types of new keris blades. Though they may look like some of the Sumatran (1st keris) or N. Malayan (2nd keris) kerises posted on this forum before, the execution of the keris gives them away immediately. The 'air tangan' is not 'right'. As is pamor execution and material used.

Is it possible to see more pictures of old Madurese keris blades please.

Thanks in advance.

David · 16th October 2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi David,
I'm not implying that the keris blade is made by a Bugis empu. All I'm saying that it might be made for a Bugis, considering the fittings(?). And the form is not a typical blade, hence the difficulty in placing the origin. Btw, what influence did you see?

Well, like you Shahrial, i am no more than an avid collector and don't have anywhere near the experience that Alan has with keris. My first impression of this blade was, frankly, somewhat influenced by the dress.

Since it doesn't look Bugis inluenced to me i thought that it might be Sumatran made under the influence of Javanese keris style. But i do see many of Alan's points. especially about the slope of the gandik. It is not just a matter of the kembang kecang recessing into the gandik, which is indeed common on many Bugis pieces. It is the actual slope of the entire gandik area. If you compare Michael"s example with John's that you most recently linked to you might be able to see what i mean. While this two keris bear an overall resemblance to each other i think that on a point by point basis there are vast differences and that the different origins come clear. If i were a betting man i think i would put my money on Alan's assessment of Michael's keris.

Alam Shah · 16th October 2006, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, like you Shahrial, i am no more than an avid collector and don't have anywhere near the experience that Alan has with keris.

Indeed. We are here to learn and share... are we not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

My first impression of this blade was, frankly, somewhat influenced by the dress.

Since it doesn't look Bugis influenced to me i thought that it might be Sumatran made under the influence of Javanese keris style. But i do see many of Alan's points. Especially about the slope of the gandik. It is not just a matter of the kembang kecang recessing into the gandik, which is indeed common on many Bugis pieces. It is the actual slope of the entire gandik area.

Likewise, I think for most of us.

Again another learning experience, for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

If you compare Michael"s example with John's that you most recently linked to you might be able to see what i mean. While this two keris bear an overall resemblance to each other i think that on a point by point basis there are vast differences and that the different origins come clear.

I somewhat agree. How about the similarities to Keris Kapak Cina? Any comments?

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

If i were a betting man i think i would put my money on Alan's assessment of Michael's keris.

Well, luckily I not a betting man.

How about comments on the fittings?

David · 17th October 2006, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

I somewhat agree. How about the similarities to Keris Kapak Cina? Any comments?

Well, luckily I not a betting man.

How about comments on the fittings?

You know, i am afriad i can't really get a good enough look at the keris kapa cina to make a viable conparison. Again, as with John's keris, it bears an overall similarity, but i think that if we examined it piece by piece we would not think there were of the same origin.
As for the fitting, i'm pretty baffled. Bugis influenced Sumatran , Sulawesi and peninsula dresstends to mend together for me. I miss the subtlties.

16th October 2006, 02:27 AM	#6
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	For comparison... Hi all, Below is an example of a blade which was acquired in Borneo (Kalimantan) by the previous owner (blade only). Now in the possession of our forumite, John. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albur05/Blade1.jpg http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albur05/Blade.jpg Notice the similarities in the greneng-work. The pamor is also similar, except that John's piece does have finer worksmanship, imo. Let's discuss... To Michael, Can we have a picture of your keris's pesi, please. Last edited by Alam Shah; 16th October 2006 at 02:38 AM.

16th October 2006, 03:50 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	For instance. Where do you think these blades might have been made? Attached Images

16th October 2006, 08:09 AM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Here you are AlamShah. Michael Attached Images

15th October 2006, 07:29 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Personally i don't see any Bugis influence in this blade. And the execution of the pamor seems very different from the Bugis/Malay examples shown even if the basic pamor type is the same. I don't think this blade was created by a Bugis smith.

15th October 2006, 11:50 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Gentlemen, I am not very often giving to making positive statements in respect of the origin of keris blades. When we say that something is of one classification of blade or another, what we are doing is applying the Javanese tangguh system which relies on a number of indicators , many of which can only be applied with the blade in one`s hand. Because of this I am more often than not very hesitant to be at all positive about the origin of a blade, based upon what I can see in a picture. Some blades can be very obvious, such as a big , smooth finish Balinese blade. Almost anybody can recognise these with just a passing glance. Similar with the classic straight Bugis blade---a glance as you walk past it, you know instantly what it is. For a person with extensive experience in handling Javanese/Madurese blades, recognition of a classic older Madurese blade is just as simple. My teacher of the tangguh system was Empu Suparman Supowijaya, who was acknowledged as one of, if not the most knowledgeable man in Surakarta , which essentially means in Jawa, and thus the world, on the subject of tangguh. I studied under his tutelage for more than twelve years, and it took me about ten of those years to begin to understand how to apply the indicators used in making a classification of a blade. During that ten years I would have handled a minimum of at least 20,000 keris blades. In the years prior to this, and following my ten year "apprenticeship" I also handled about 2000 keris blades during each year. At the present time I am reasonably confident that the tangguh that I give a blade will be accepted by the majority of people in Central Jawa who do understand tangguh, as a reasonable classification of a blade. I say " majority of people", because decison on a tangguh is essentially a matter of applying certain standards to the indicators and forming an opinion which can be supported by reasoned argument against the standard of the accepted indicators. There will usually be a few people who do not agree. In respect of the blade under discussion I have varied from my usual reluctance to give a positive tangguh. Why have I done this? The answer is simple:- I am absolutely positive that this blade conforms in all material respects to the indicators which will give it a tangguh of Madura. However, as I have already pointed out, this is an opinion, and in this case that opinion is based upon what I can see in a photograph.I acknowledge the right of anybody at all to disagree with me, however, my decision in this matter is firm, and I stand by it.

16th October 2006, 03:32 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Anything is possible. However, when presented with a Madura keris, the balance of probability indicates that that keris was made in Madura. Certainly it could have been made in Kalimantan, or anywhere else for that matter, but it is not probable that it was. Possible, yes, probable, no. Tangguh is about establishing an applicable classification, based on comparison of indicators with certain fairly specific parameters. It is not necessarily about fixing origin of a blade at a certain time and place.It may indicate time and place of origin, but it does not necessarily have to do so. A number of examples of other blades have been posted, but none of these blades look like a Madura blade. However, this a matter of opinion. I have given my opinion, anybody else is perfectly entitled to a different opinion.