Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

BSMStar · 9th February 2005, 07:00 PM

Pamor Luwu rings a bell.... can you say a little more about it?

Jens Nordlunde · 9th February 2005, 09:42 PM

I am afraid the we are back discussing kerises more than what I started - maybe I should not have started this thread.

Jens

nechesh · 9th February 2005, 11:44 PM

Well Jens, i'm afraid threads tend to have a mind of their own.

If you reread you opening post you are wondering about keris. People tend (hopefully) to talk about what they know or are interested in and since i know very little about Indian weapons i'm afraid info on keris is all i have to add to this thread.

To give you my answer to your final question in that first post, i think the reason you hear less about meteoric ore in Indian weapons than Indonesian is that inspite of the quoted passage Indian smiths still did less of it than Indonesian empus.
Wayne, pamor luwu came from Sulawesi. There is abit more about it and pamor in general on this site:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...ilah/pamor.htm

Jens Nordlunde · 10th February 2005, 09:15 AM

nechesh, you are right, I was a bit harsh - sorry.
When the exported wootz from Sri Lanka and India to places like Persia, Africa an other places - why was there no export known of to Indonesia, Sumatra and other places?

Rick,
Yes I have trought of that too, unfortunately the author does not go into details when telling about it.

Jens

BSMStar · 10th February 2005, 06:53 PM

Sorry about going off in a tangent.... (I think I have created a monster and it's me).

I think it is a "urban legend" that you can find metallic nickel-iron as a "native" surface rock on earth.

Here is a quote and the link:
Niccle (Nickel, my insert) and iron ore were extracted from the mines near Malili and were exported to Jawa, where you can still find a kind of niccle (pamor), which is still named Luwu.

http://indahnesia.com/Indonesia/Sula...hp?code=SULHIS

It appears that mines in the area produced both nickel ores (Nickel laterite) and iron ores... that were mixed to create the Luwu pamor. Gee, maybe my old Cosmochem professor was right? Here are two more links,

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/laterama.html
http://www.inco.ca/about/exploration...e/default.aspx

I am sure the smiths in India would have used iron meteorites (and could have) if they were known and available. There are a number of examples of iron meteorites being used for edged weapons around the world (we have our own Bowie knife). But it seems to me that opportunity and chance play a major role in if and when these kinds weapons are made. In Jawa, it landed in their own backyard. Keep in mind that nickel-iron meteorites only make up about 5% of the witnessed falls that are recovered (and how may have you seen and recovered??), it is an extremely rare event. Rarity, I think, should guide you to the answer to your question.

Jens Nordlunde · 10th February 2005, 09:46 PM

Hi BSMStar,

I think the links you are giving are very fascinating, and somewhat surprising to me, I have not read it all yet, but they seem very interesting.
To me it seems, the more I read, the less I understand – but maybe someone else is more clever than I am – hopefully.
I am at the moment involved in another problem which is very tricky, and which takes a lot of my time.
Thanks for the links.

Jens

BSMStar · 10th February 2005, 11:12 PM

My apologies, Jens

In my zeal to show references (other than my bad memory), and in trying to keep to the basics... I do not wish to overwhelm anyone who is not ready for the info, some of my post may or may not be as helpful as intended (maybe a little to basic). Sorry.

What I was trying to say and show... the only real source for "nickel-iron" (that which is already combined) would have a cosmic source, like a meteorite. The mining literature from the Luwu area suggest separate nickel and iron ores... unless someone else knows and can post a source on a non-cosmic source, I would be most interested in learning about it.

I think karma, fate, chance, circumstances or what ever term you want to use... placed a "workable" meteorite where it did and made the Keris a very special and unique weapon that it is.

9th February 2005, 07:00 PM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Pamor Luwu Pamor Luwu rings a bell.... can you say a little more about it?

9th February 2005, 11:44 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Jens, i'm afraid threads tend to have a mind of their own. If you reread you opening post you are wondering about keris. People tend (hopefully) to talk about what they know or are interested in and since i know very little about Indian weapons i'm afraid info on keris is all i have to add to this thread. To give you my answer to your final question in that first post, i think the reason you hear less about meteoric ore in Indian weapons than Indonesian is that inspite of the quoted passage Indian smiths still did less of it than Indonesian empus. Wayne, pamor luwu came from Sulawesi. There is abit more about it and pamor in general on this site: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...ilah/pamor.htm Last edited by nechesh; 10th February 2005 at 06:30 PM.

10th February 2005, 06:53 PM	#5
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Luwu Ore Sorry about going off in a tangent.... (I think I have created a monster and it's me). I think it is a "urban legend" that you can find metallic nickel-iron as a "native" surface rock on earth. Here is a quote and the link: Niccle (Nickel, my insert) and iron ore were extracted from the mines near Malili and were exported to Jawa, where you can still find a kind of niccle (pamor), which is still named Luwu. http://indahnesia.com/Indonesia/Sula...hp?code=SULHIS It appears that mines in the area produced both nickel ores (Nickel laterite) and iron ores... that were mixed to create the Luwu pamor. Gee, maybe my old Cosmochem professor was right? Here are two more links, http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/laterama.html http://www.inco.ca/about/exploration...e/default.aspx I am sure the smiths in India would have used iron meteorites (and could have) if they were known and available. There are a number of examples of iron meteorites being used for edged weapons around the world (we have our own Bowie knife). But it seems to me that opportunity and chance play a major role in if and when these kinds weapons are made. In Jawa, it landed in their own backyard. Keep in mind that nickel-iron meteorites only make up about 5% of the witnessed falls that are recovered (and how may have you seen and recovered??), it is an extremely rare event. Rarity, I think, should guide you to the answer to your question.

9th February 2005, 09:42 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I am afraid the we are back discussing kerises more than what I started - maybe I should not have started this thread. Jens

10th February 2005, 09:15 AM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	nechesh, you are right, I was a bit harsh - sorry. When the exported wootz from Sri Lanka and India to places like Persia, Africa an other places - why was there no export known of to Indonesia, Sumatra and other places? Rick, Yes I have trought of that too, unfortunately the author does not go into details when telling about it. Jens

10th February 2005, 09:46 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi BSMStar, I think the links you are giving are very fascinating, and somewhat surprising to me, I have not read it all yet, but they seem very interesting. To me it seems, the more I read, the less I understand – but maybe someone else is more clever than I am – hopefully. I am at the moment involved in another problem which is very tricky, and which takes a lot of my time. Thanks for the links. Jens

10th February 2005, 11:12 PM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	My apologies, Jens In my zeal to show references (other than my bad memory), and in trying to keep to the basics... I do not wish to overwhelm anyone who is not ready for the info, some of my post may or may not be as helpful as intended (maybe a little to basic). Sorry. What I was trying to say and show... the only real source for "nickel-iron" (that which is already combined) would have a cosmic source, like a meteorite. The mining literature from the Luwu area suggest separate nickel and iron ores... unless someone else knows and can post a source on a non-cosmic source, I would be most interested in learning about it. I think karma, fate, chance, circumstances or what ever term you want to use... placed a "workable" meteorite where it did and made the Keris a very special and unique weapon that it is.