Fighting with keris

David · 11th October 2006, 05:22 PM

Well, Steve seems like a nice chap and he sure does move pretty well, but i think it's fair to say that he doesn't know squat about keris. Firstly this keris, or at least the dress that he comments on is a very typical form of Madurese keris, not Lombak or Bali. He moves the blade quickly so it is hard to see, but it doesn't look all that impressive and my feeling is that this is a piece "made for travelers" so i doubt this would be a piece with much life energy in it. Hard to say without handling it though. The winged horse is a symbol rather specific to Madurese form an is post-Hindu as far as i know. Infact it may well be a European influenced symbol as the Madurese incorporated quite a bit of that into there dress designs.
Also i dare say that for someone who has traveled so much in Indonesian he hardly treats the blade in the manner i would expect to see from a person claiming to be knowledgable of the tradition. None of this, of course, necessarily reflects on his knowledge or abilities in silat.

Pusaka · 11th October 2006, 05:42 PM

I thought his demonstration of fighting with his eyes covered showed that he has sufficient sensitivity to know if the blade is alive or not.
His definition of a keris being “real” or not is quite simplistic but I like it. Basically if it is “alive” it is real and if it is “dead” it is not a real keris.

Rick · 11th October 2006, 06:59 PM

So by this logic every new keris made by a talented panday is not a 'Real Keris' !?!
I don't mean to insult Pusaka but I think this viewpoint is sort of silly .

I'm sure the fellow is a very talented martial artist and blindfolded combat is not unique to this gentleman's repertoire ; I've seen others fight blindfolded.

I take exception with his very narrow view of what is and is not a real keris.
If this works for you; fine , but I must ask how; in future discussions here when pictures of kerises are presented; are you going to know if they're real kerises ?

David · 11th October 2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I thought his demonstration of fighting with his eyes covered showed that he has sufficient sensitivity to know if the blade is alive or not.
His definition of a keris being “real” or not is quite simplistic but I like it. Basically if it is “alive” it is real and if it is “dead” it is not a real keris.

Sorry Pusaka, but i am not convinced that one thing is necessarily indicative of the other. Like i said, he is a good fighter, but he knows very little about keris. That sheath contains no Vedic symbols and is definitely from Madura, not Lombak or Bali. I tried to get a better look with freeze-frame and it does appear that it might be a pamored blade (sorely in need of re-staining), though it doesn't appear to be one crafted with any particular skill and is most probably village work. It is small and may be a patrem or possibily a dukkun's keris as he suggests, but it is questionable that even if this keris once were "alive" when it was maintained that it would still be so in it's current state. Many "real" keris no longer hold spiritual energy as that energy was maintained by the line of ownership and the care and feeding of that energy by that family line. Does that mean that an empu made keris that has sat in a Dutch museum since the 17th or 18th century and lost it's energy due to lack of care and feeding is no longer a "real" keris.

Pusaka · 11th October 2006, 10:33 PM

This is a difficult one to answer, a lot depends on personal belief as to what a keris is. If a modern keris was made with all the care, attention and preparation as in older times then I would not hesitate to call it a “real” keris. If on the other hand a keris was rapidly beaten out, artificially aged and clearly made with little attention or skill I would have no hesitation in calling it a piece of junk and I have to say personally I would not regard it as a real keris. Ebay is full of such keris.
I am aware that there is a difference between a keris made for everyday use and a keris pusaka. The icing on the cake is if the blade is alive or not, if it has undergone the correct and complete process then it is. If it has not then it is just a piece of metal.
How long does it take a keris to die I cant answer, how long does it take a magnet to completely lose its magnetism? It will get weaker over time but it will probably always contain some residual magnetism, “life”.
I think of a real keris blade as a vassal suitably constructed so that it can be empowered and retain that for some period of time. It requires two things, firstly it must be physically constructed in the correct manner from suitable materials and secondly it must have undergone a meditative preparation.
A keris that was just hammered out with little care is not in the position to be empowered and neither can it ever become “alive”
On the other hand a keris which was constructed in the correct manner and with the correct care, even if its life has faded over time due to neglect it is in the position where it could be given new life by a good owner.
Hope I haven’t overdone it with the mystical talk about dead and alive keris

but this is just my personal thoughts about keris, and “real” keris.

So finally my definition of a “real” keris is a blade suitably constructed so that either it has life or has the potential to be given life due to it possessing correct physical construction.

And a fake keris, a blade made in such a manner that it never was nor never will be a suitable vassal to be empowered.

Rick · 11th October 2006, 11:05 PM

You showed a nice modern keris that you own Pusaka; in your eyes is it real or not ?
If it is real then how did you make it so ?

Also I'd like to bring up the concept that a comissioned keris (old or new) was made to suit the person who comissioned it; the pamor, prayers, etc. directed for that one individual. Now when this piece comes into the market and is bought by another person how can it still be living and incorporate whatever traits were imbued in it for a total stranger ?

This concept puzzles me .

Lew · 12th October 2006, 01:27 AM

I always thought that the pamor and prayers used in making the keris would be passed on the the next person who owned it that is of course that they have respect fo the keris in the traditional sense? I also have heard stories that practioners prefer new keris due to the chance that an old one could carry bad or an evil aura or karma. So if a keris is made by a skilled panday or smith it should always carry some type of spirit in it especially from the maker who has put part of himself in the keris.

Lew

David · 12th October 2006, 03:34 AM

Well, we seem to be getting off on a tangent here since this thread is supposed to be about fighting with keris, using the keris as a physical weapon, not as a spiritual tool. But here we are.

You don't need to apologize for the mystical talk Pusaka, it's pretty difficult not to talk about it when it comes to keris.
As for what's alive or not, IMHO, it is clear to me that EVERYTHING is alive. This is not just a mystical philosophy, it is a scientific fact. EVERYTHING is alive on the sub-atomic level. I believe the sub-atomic is the conduit for the mystical/magical current. A trained "practitioner" can embue purpose and access power from a safety pin if necessary. Keris have been constructed for many different purposes over the centuries. Certainly the level of skill and attention, energy and prayers directed into that construction has helped to open these tools as a conduit for whatever purpose they were constructed for. But untimately it is my believe that in the end power resides in the practitioner, not the object. This doesn't mean that a properly constructed keris, embued with the right prayers and energy in accordance with that practitioners beliefs won't make a better conduit for the work that practitioner does with the keris.
If we are collecting old keris it seems somewhat unreasonable to think that a blade specially prepared to do a particular mystical/magickal working for a particular person from a foreign culture 2, 3 or 4 centuries ago will automatic deliver the same mystical/magickal energy to me. Likewise a keris pusaka that carries the energy of family power and lineage is not going to transfer the power and energy of that family's bloodline to me simply because it has somehow come into my hands. I must make my own pusaka if that is my purpose. For these reasons i can see why a silat practitioner who does not have bloodline ties to Indonesian culture might prefer to have a new keris to an old one, as Lew suggests, but if i were an Indonesian practitioner i think i would be quite happy with my father's keris.

VVV · 12th October 2006, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I also have heard stories that practioners prefer new keris due to the chance that an old one could carry bad or an evil aura or karma.

Lew

This is also my experience. When Grand Tuhon Gaje started to visit me in Stockholm about 10 years ago he went through my old blades and sensed the vibes of them. Which ones who had killed somebody and those few that had not. He also told me that he didn't like old blades because of the bad forces that could live in them based on what they have been part of. The only antique blade that he used himself was the swords of his maternal grandfather. Otherwise he always preferred new blades made specifically for him. But at least my old sword mounted Lading from Sumba seems to be OK because that's the one he picked for the cover picture of the Swedish MA magazine Fighter.

I never asked my Silat/Kuntao teacher about this but he always also use new blades.

Michael

Pusaka · 12th October 2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

You showed a nice modern keris that you own Pusaka; in your eyes is it real or not ?
If it is real then how did you make it so ?

Yes that keris is mine. What do I mean by that? I have other keris hanging on my wall but I only have one keris which I consider my personal keris. You can only ever have one keris which you make your own, not a whole wall full. I commissioned it and it was made for me but when I received it it was real in the sense that it was made to a suitable physical standard however it will only becomes “alive” if I make it mine.

As I said previously:

a “real” keris is a blade suitably constructed so that either it has life or has the potential to be given life due to it possessing correct physical construction.

Hopefully I have by now totally confused everyone

11th October 2006, 06:59 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	So by this logic every new keris made by a talented panday is not a 'Real Keris' !?! I don't mean to insult Pusaka but I think this viewpoint is sort of silly . I'm sure the fellow is a very talented martial artist and blindfolded combat is not unique to this gentleman's repertoire ; I've seen others fight blindfolded. I take exception with his very narrow view of what is and is not a real keris. If this works for you; fine , but I must ask how; in future discussions here when pictures of kerises are presented; are you going to know if they're real kerises ? Last edited by Rick; 11th October 2006 at 07:19 PM. Reason: Further thoughts

11th October 2006, 10:33 PM	#5
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	This is a difficult one to answer, a lot depends on personal belief as to what a keris is. If a modern keris was made with all the care, attention and preparation as in older times then I would not hesitate to call it a “real” keris. If on the other hand a keris was rapidly beaten out, artificially aged and clearly made with little attention or skill I would have no hesitation in calling it a piece of junk and I have to say personally I would not regard it as a real keris. Ebay is full of such keris. I am aware that there is a difference between a keris made for everyday use and a keris pusaka. The icing on the cake is if the blade is alive or not, if it has undergone the correct and complete process then it is. If it has not then it is just a piece of metal. How long does it take a keris to die I cant answer, how long does it take a magnet to completely lose its magnetism? It will get weaker over time but it will probably always contain some residual magnetism, “life”. I think of a real keris blade as a vassal suitably constructed so that it can be empowered and retain that for some period of time. It requires two things, firstly it must be physically constructed in the correct manner from suitable materials and secondly it must have undergone a meditative preparation. A keris that was just hammered out with little care is not in the position to be empowered and neither can it ever become “alive” On the other hand a keris which was constructed in the correct manner and with the correct care, even if its life has faded over time due to neglect it is in the position where it could be given new life by a good owner. Hope I haven’t overdone it with the mystical talk about dead and alive keris but this is just my personal thoughts about keris, and “real” keris. So finally my definition of a “real” keris is a blade suitably constructed so that either it has life or has the potential to be given life due to it possessing correct physical construction. And a fake keris, a blade made in such a manner that it never was nor never will be a suitable vassal to be empowered. Last edited by Pusaka; 11th October 2006 at 10:54 PM.

11th October 2006, 05:22 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well, Steve seems like a nice chap and he sure does move pretty well, but i think it's fair to say that he doesn't know squat about keris. Firstly this keris, or at least the dress that he comments on is a very typical form of Madurese keris, not Lombak or Bali. He moves the blade quickly so it is hard to see, but it doesn't look all that impressive and my feeling is that this is a piece "made for travelers" so i doubt this would be a piece with much life energy in it. Hard to say without handling it though. The winged horse is a symbol rather specific to Madurese form an is post-Hindu as far as i know. Infact it may well be a European influenced symbol as the Madurese incorporated quite a bit of that into there dress designs. Also i dare say that for someone who has traveled so much in Indonesian he hardly treats the blade in the manner i would expect to see from a person claiming to be knowledgable of the tradition. None of this, of course, necessarily reflects on his knowledge or abilities in silat.

11th October 2006, 05:42 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I thought his demonstration of fighting with his eyes covered showed that he has sufficient sensitivity to know if the blade is alive or not. His definition of a keris being “real” or not is quite simplistic but I like it. Basically if it is “alive” it is real and if it is “dead” it is not a real keris.

11th October 2006, 11:05 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	You showed a nice modern keris that you own Pusaka; in your eyes is it real or not ? If it is real then how did you make it so ? Also I'd like to bring up the concept that a comissioned keris (old or new) was made to suit the person who comissioned it; the pamor, prayers, etc. directed for that one individual. Now when this piece comes into the market and is bought by another person how can it still be living and incorporate whatever traits were imbued in it for a total stranger ? This concept puzzles me .

12th October 2006, 01:27 AM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I always thought that the pamor and prayers used in making the keris would be passed on the the next person who owned it that is of course that they have respect fo the keris in the traditional sense? I also have heard stories that practioners prefer new keris due to the chance that an old one could carry bad or an evil aura or karma. So if a keris is made by a skilled panday or smith it should always carry some type of spirit in it especially from the maker who has put part of himself in the keris. Lew

12th October 2006, 03:34 AM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well, we seem to be getting off on a tangent here since this thread is supposed to be about fighting with keris, using the keris as a physical weapon, not as a spiritual tool. But here we are. You don't need to apologize for the mystical talk Pusaka, it's pretty difficult not to talk about it when it comes to keris. As for what's alive or not, IMHO, it is clear to me that EVERYTHING is alive. This is not just a mystical philosophy, it is a scientific fact. EVERYTHING is alive on the sub-atomic level. I believe the sub-atomic is the conduit for the mystical/magical current. A trained "practitioner" can embue purpose and access power from a safety pin if necessary. Keris have been constructed for many different purposes over the centuries. Certainly the level of skill and attention, energy and prayers directed into that construction has helped to open these tools as a conduit for whatever purpose they were constructed for. But untimately it is my believe that in the end power resides in the practitioner, not the object. This doesn't mean that a properly constructed keris, embued with the right prayers and energy in accordance with that practitioners beliefs won't make a better conduit for the work that practitioner does with the keris. If we are collecting old keris it seems somewhat unreasonable to think that a blade specially prepared to do a particular mystical/magickal working for a particular person from a foreign culture 2, 3 or 4 centuries ago will automatic deliver the same mystical/magickal energy to me. Likewise a keris pusaka that carries the energy of family power and lineage is not going to transfer the power and energy of that family's bloodline to me simply because it has somehow come into my hands. I must make my own pusaka if that is my purpose. For these reasons i can see why a silat practitioner who does not have bloodline ties to Indonesian culture might prefer to have a new keris to an old one, as Lew suggests, but if i were an Indonesian practitioner i think i would be quite happy with my father's keris.