Dha or Nimcha? Strange sword: need input

RhysMichael · 8th October 2006, 08:47 PM

The blade looks indonesian to me. The blade shape similar to a parang Langgai Tinggang or some parang naibor.
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photo...00850/ph-0.jpg
http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/day...ayak_intro.htm
I had seen some other blades with the saif ( nimcha ) type handles and Jim posted this about it "These Moroccan swords with complex guards were known from at least the earlier 17th century in the Maghreb (which included the Moroccan littoral as far as Algeria)and the hilts are believed to have developed from early Italian sabres via Arab trade.From those times, these were typically mounted with varying forms of trade blades"

I hope he sees this for I would be interested in seeing what he thinks of it

Whatever it is, its a great find and a rarity congratulations

Tim Simmons · 8th October 2006, 08:55 PM

Yes, perhaps it is SE Asian. Just like one sees talwar type grips, maybe this is another "Islamic" influence grip, just happens to be seen more frequently in N Africa.

Flavio · 8th October 2006, 09:11 PM

Yeah, the overall shape of the blade, the scabbard and also the red color on the handle, remembers to me a "strange" parang nabor.

Rick · 8th October 2006, 09:12 PM

Blade length, hilt length ?
Could be a N. African sword .
The thing looks like a boarding cutlass to me .

ariel · 9th October 2006, 02:23 AM

Sorry, I got poetic and forgot about the "academic" part
The handle is 5.5 inches long; the blade is 23" long and a tad more than 2" wide (close to the point). I do not have it's weight without scabbard, with scabbard and scabbard separately. This will surely disqualify it from ever being written up in an " academic" book

On a more serious note, it is superbly balanced and a pleasure to hold and to wield. Another thing: it is not sharpened for the first 5-7 inches, but after that .... you can shave with it!
It does have a resemblance to naval cutlasses but could just as well be used elsewhere. I thought about it being a variant of Nabur, but I have never seen one with a Nimcha handle, most of them had knuckleguards and the blade looks and feels Thai. Southern Thailand, with sizeable Muslim population? Were Thai blades exported to nearby countries?
Which brings us back to a discussion we once had: what determines the provemance or a general classificaton of a sword: the handle or the blade?
Say, we have a sword with a typical Nabur handle and a Yataghan blade. Where did it come from from the usage point of view? Shall we say it is a Borneo Parang Nabur with an Ottoman Yataghan blade or an Ottoman Yataghan with a SE Asian handle? Following Polish tradition, I would vote for the former.

Rick · 9th October 2006, 02:54 PM

I see a possibly Thai or Parang Nabur type blade with what I definitely would consider a N. African style handle .

I'd like to see some S.E.A. hilts that strongly resemble this one .

I apologise deeply for inferring that you were not being Academic Dr. ; myself; I'm just a lowly collector .

RhysMichael · 9th October 2006, 03:09 PM

I cannot tell the blade shape on this but in the scabbard the short one on here looks similar

ariel · 9th October 2006, 03:30 PM

Number 2?
It looks like a classic Moroccan Nimcha with 3 down-turned quillons and the fourth one forming a knuckleguard.
Some South Arabian swords had pommels resembling " Nimcha's" ( likely, an influence from Zanzibar), but I am unaware of this pattern penetrating deeper to the East.
There were large Arab colonies in S. India and Arab traders went as far as Indonesia ( Sindbad must have gone there on a weekly basis

)
We know about European and Indian influences on SEA swords. Are there any examples of Arab motives ? Inscriptions do not count: they are examples of religious Islamic influence rather than ethnographic Arabian influence.
I'll start: Indonesian Jambiya and Indian Haladie

8th October 2006, 08:47 PM	#1
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	The blade looks indonesian to me. The blade shape similar to a parang Langgai Tinggang or some parang naibor. http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photo...00850/ph-0.jpg http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/day...ayak_intro.htm I had seen some other blades with the saif ( nimcha ) type handles and Jim posted this about it "These Moroccan swords with complex guards were known from at least the earlier 17th century in the Maghreb (which included the Moroccan littoral as far as Algeria)and the hilts are believed to have developed from early Italian sabres via Arab trade.From those times, these were typically mounted with varying forms of trade blades" I hope he sees this for I would be interested in seeing what he thinks of it Whatever it is, its a great find and a rarity congratulations Last edited by RhysMichael; 8th October 2006 at 08:59 PM.

8th October 2006, 08:55 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Yes, perhaps it is SE Asian. Just like one sees talwar type grips, maybe this is another "Islamic" influence grip, just happens to be seen more frequently in N Africa.

8th October 2006, 09:11 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Yeah, the overall shape of the blade, the scabbard and also the red color on the handle, remembers to me a "strange" parang nabor.

8th October 2006, 09:12 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Blade length, hilt length ? Could be a N. African sword . The thing looks like a boarding cutlass to me .

9th October 2006, 02:23 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry, I got poetic and forgot about the "academic" part The handle is 5.5 inches long; the blade is 23" long and a tad more than 2" wide (close to the point). I do not have it's weight without scabbard, with scabbard and scabbard separately. This will surely disqualify it from ever being written up in an " academic" book On a more serious note, it is superbly balanced and a pleasure to hold and to wield. Another thing: it is not sharpened for the first 5-7 inches, but after that .... you can shave with it! It does have a resemblance to naval cutlasses but could just as well be used elsewhere. I thought about it being a variant of Nabur, but I have never seen one with a Nimcha handle, most of them had knuckleguards and the blade looks and feels Thai. Southern Thailand, with sizeable Muslim population? Were Thai blades exported to nearby countries? Which brings us back to a discussion we once had: what determines the provemance or a general classificaton of a sword: the handle or the blade? Say, we have a sword with a typical Nabur handle and a Yataghan blade. Where did it come from from the usage point of view? Shall we say it is a Borneo Parang Nabur with an Ottoman Yataghan blade or an Ottoman Yataghan with a SE Asian handle? Following Polish tradition, I would vote for the former.

9th October 2006, 02:54 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I see a possibly Thai or Parang Nabur type blade with what I definitely would consider a N. African style handle . I'd like to see some S.E.A. hilts that strongly resemble this one . I apologise deeply for inferring that you were not being Academic Dr. ; myself; I'm just a lowly collector .

9th October 2006, 03:09 PM	#7
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I cannot tell the blade shape on this but in the scabbard the short one on here looks similar

9th October 2006, 03:30 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Number 2? It looks like a classic Moroccan Nimcha with 3 down-turned quillons and the fourth one forming a knuckleguard. Some South Arabian swords had pommels resembling " Nimcha's" ( likely, an influence from Zanzibar), but I am unaware of this pattern penetrating deeper to the East. There were large Arab colonies in S. India and Arab traders went as far as Indonesia ( Sindbad must have gone there on a weekly basis ) We know about European and Indian influences on SEA swords. Are there any examples of Arab motives ? Inscriptions do not count: they are examples of religious Islamic influence rather than ethnographic Arabian influence. I'll start: Indonesian Jambiya and Indian Haladie