Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

BSMStar · 8th February 2005, 01:19 PM

Since the Prambanan meteorite wasn't introduced untill the 1700's... can some tell me how far back the nickel-iron parmor goes back? What was the early history of the metallurgy? Was it just Malelo before that?

Jens Nordlunde · 8th February 2005, 01:23 PM

Hi BSMStar,

Thank you for your answer. It is very interesting what you write about the different types of meteors, and the concentration of the different metals. I find it most interesting, that iron, even with a very small concentration of some other metal, can act very different when forged, and sometimes make it almost impossible to forge, if it is not treated in a very special way. When they, started to work with wootz steel and meteoric iron, it must have taken them a considered amount of time, until they had learned how to treat the metal so they could form it.
Sorry I can't help you with your new question.

Jens

fearn · 8th February 2005, 02:56 PM

I'm trying to remember where I read this: it was one of the contemporary knife catalogs, and the name escapes me at the moment (argh! I'll edit it in when I remember it!)

This is a sideline to the "meteoric iron" thread, but it is about the high nickel iron used to create pamor. Apparently, the volcanoes on Java cough out nodules of high-nickel iron, and that is what is (was) used for most keris blades, presumably along with low-nickel iron from other sources.

Apparently, westerners used to think that high-nickel iron only came from meteorites, and so among westerners, the story was that the pamor iron all came from meteoric iron.

This doesn't contradict the idea that some keris and other blades were made from meteorites. It simply says that most pamor blades have a strictly terrestrial origin, and Indonesia isn't a magnet for meteoric bombardment.

F

Jens Nordlunde · 8th February 2005, 03:04 PM

Hi fearn,

When you remember where you read it, please post it. It is a most interesting turn the discussion has taken.
Thank you for your post.

Jens

BSMStar · 8th February 2005, 04:49 PM

Hi fearn and Jens,

Back in my college days (early seventies - I know, I'm showing my age), nickel with iron was looked upon as a sign of a cosmic source. I know a lot has changed since then... so you will get no debate from me. I knew the Empus had a source of "poor" nickel-iron that was being mined in the region, which caught my attention (how could I not want a Keris?). I guess its time for me to go back to grad school.

My wife said I have to stop collecting anyway.

I still would be interesting to know how far back in time this type of metallurgy goes... and how wide spread it was. Thank you Jens for starting this thread.

Rick · 8th February 2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

I'm trying to remember where I read this: it was one of the contemporary knife catalogs, and the name escapes me at the moment (argh! I'll edit it in when I remember it!)

This is a sideline to the "meteoric iron" thread, but it is about the high nickel iron used to create pamor. Apparently, the volcanoes on Java cough out nodules of high-nickel iron, and that is what is (was) used for most keris blades, presumably along with low-nickel iron from other sources.

Apparently, westerners used to think that high-nickel iron only came from meteorites, and so among westerners, the story was that the pamor iron all came from meteoric iron.

This doesn't contradict the idea that some keris and other blades were made from meteorites. It simply says that most pamor blades have a strictly terrestrial origin, and Indonesia isn't a magnet for meteoric bombardment.

F

Driven to Google yet again .

Here's a page that discusses the composition of the magma that is released by Mt Merapi in Jawa :
http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~beaudu/vsi/merview.html
And another locating the volcanos in the archipelago .
http://www.volcanolive.com/indonesia3.html
Last , a cross section , lots of Iron in the earth's core .
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/hazard/...omposition.gif

BSMStar · 8th February 2005, 06:12 PM

Thank you Rick!

Awesome links! But in the geochemistry, I missed any nickel bearing mineralogy... just your typical/normal Basaltic, Andesitic and Pyroclastic associated minerals.

I recall reading an article that named the location where the "poor" quality nickel-iron was being imported from, and it included the import of nickel, which didn't work out too well. I wish I could refer to it. Has anyone else seen it?

nechesh · 9th February 2005, 01:00 AM

Wayne, just a stickler point, pamor Prambanan was really introduced at the beginning of the 1800s.
I'm not sure about nickle/iron nodules from Jawa volcanos, but it was always my understanding that much of the nickleous pamor used in Jawa was imported from other islands, like pamor luwu.
Oh, and Wayne, if your wife is really gonna make you stop collecting, don't forget what i said about that nice Bali keris of yours.

BSMStar · 9th February 2005, 06:58 PM

Well nechesh,

Yea, its true she would like me to stop.... I said I would stop, if she would stop buying all those dresses, shoes and stuff she really doesn't need (or wear very often - it ends up sitting in the closet, you know what I mean).

She came home from "shopping" and just could not pass up another one of those bargins!

Well, some how another Keris just happened to show up

(and a Keris stand too? now how did that happen???

)

But back to the subject....

8th February 2005, 01:19 PM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	When did Nickel first get introduced? Since the Prambanan meteorite wasn't introduced untill the 1700's... can some tell me how far back the nickel-iron parmor goes back? What was the early history of the metallurgy? Was it just Malelo before that?

8th February 2005, 04:49 PM	#5
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Cosmic or Not Hi fearn and Jens, Back in my college days (early seventies - I know, I'm showing my age), nickel with iron was looked upon as a sign of a cosmic source. I know a lot has changed since then... so you will get no debate from me. I knew the Empus had a source of "poor" nickel-iron that was being mined in the region, which caught my attention (how could I not want a Keris?). I guess its time for me to go back to grad school. My wife said I have to stop collecting anyway. I still would be interesting to know how far back in time this type of metallurgy goes... and how wide spread it was. Thank you Jens for starting this thread.

8th February 2005, 06:12 PM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Imported materials Thank you Rick! Awesome links! But in the geochemistry, I missed any nickel bearing mineralogy... just your typical/normal Basaltic, Andesitic and Pyroclastic associated minerals. I recall reading an article that named the location where the "poor" quality nickel-iron was being imported from, and it included the import of nickel, which didn't work out too well. I wish I could refer to it. Has anyone else seen it?

9th February 2005, 06:58 PM	#9
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Collecting.... Well nechesh, Yea, its true she would like me to stop.... I said I would stop, if she would stop buying all those dresses, shoes and stuff she really doesn't need (or wear very often - it ends up sitting in the closet, you know what I mean). She came home from "shopping" and just could not pass up another one of those bargins! Well, some how another Keris just happened to show up (and a Keris stand too? now how did that happen??? ) But back to the subject....

8th February 2005, 01:23 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi BSMStar, Thank you for your answer. It is very interesting what you write about the different types of meteors, and the concentration of the different metals. I find it most interesting, that iron, even with a very small concentration of some other metal, can act very different when forged, and sometimes make it almost impossible to forge, if it is not treated in a very special way. When they, started to work with wootz steel and meteoric iron, it must have taken them a considered amount of time, until they had learned how to treat the metal so they could form it. Sorry I can't help you with your new question. Jens

8th February 2005, 02:56 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm trying to remember where I read this: it was one of the contemporary knife catalogs, and the name escapes me at the moment (argh! I'll edit it in when I remember it!) This is a sideline to the "meteoric iron" thread, but it is about the high nickel iron used to create pamor. Apparently, the volcanoes on Java cough out nodules of high-nickel iron, and that is what is (was) used for most keris blades, presumably along with low-nickel iron from other sources. Apparently, westerners used to think that high-nickel iron only came from meteorites, and so among westerners, the story was that the pamor iron all came from meteoric iron. This doesn't contradict the idea that some keris and other blades were made from meteorites. It simply says that most pamor blades have a strictly terrestrial origin, and Indonesia isn't a magnet for meteoric bombardment. F

8th February 2005, 03:04 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi fearn, When you remember where you read it, please post it. It is a most interesting turn the discussion has taken. Thank you for your post. Jens

9th February 2005, 01:00 AM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wayne, just a stickler point, pamor Prambanan was really introduced at the beginning of the 1800s. I'm not sure about nickle/iron nodules from Jawa volcanos, but it was always my understanding that much of the nickleous pamor used in Jawa was imported from other islands, like pamor luwu. Oh, and Wayne, if your wife is really gonna make you stop collecting, don't forget what i said about that nice Bali keris of yours.