Balatos -- swords with balls

[ariel]

Guys,
I do not collect these weapons and do not have a bone in the fight.
I agree with Cyclura99 that the only definition of a real sword is the one that was made for it's intended purpose: fighting. some have other definitions and I shall be the last person to talk them out of their misconceptions: collecting is such an idiosyncratic business that there is a place in it for every craze. If some people collect freshly-printed stamps, why would I argue with somebody collecting 50 year old swords? I try to collect really old swords as defined above. I do not always succeed, though since the "forces of evil" often outsmart me to the point of embarrassement, but each and all of us have been fooled. The price of learning....
On the other hand, I suggest that a big part of the fun of collecting is exchange of information, and here I am firmly in Bill's corner. Even though we all compete to a degree, I have seen a lot of cooperation and selflessness among the Forumites. That what makes this Forum pleasant. I would be uncomfortable withholding true information from a Forumite who asked for advice, even though this info might help him to outbid me in the future. We often mention politeness of our dscussions as a sine qua non. This Forum allows a lot of berth for jokes (occasionally off color) and for a "no holds barred" approach. However, attempts to humiliate a fellow Forumite are something we all should avoid.
My 5 cents worth (before the inflation and taxes )

[Rick]

I think this ugliness has gone far enough ; Cyclura, if you have an issue with Bill please deal with it out of forum .

This whole exchange IMO smacks of pettiness and personal conflict.

Cyclura, if you wish to help educate the other members feel free to do so in a pleasant way.

If you wish to simply attack Bill please do it on your own time.

[Cyclura99]

When I am asked about a opinion I give it.When I am asked for pictures from a potencial buyer I send them thinking the person is a serious collector. I made the mistake of thinking BILL was a serious Collcetor .As far as being bitter Not even close .Its about trying to point out what a collector is and what a collector is NOT. Also what is REAL and what is NOT.

I believe in the truth even if its not what a person wants to read or hear only then can a person learn something.

If the Forum Moderator will allow I will post two Maybe three from my collection > REAL NIAS BALATOS WEAPONS with authentic Amulets used in the days of Head taking.

So there will be no question as to REAL and reproduction made for sale .

If this Forum is about learning then so be it.Its Up to the moderator to allow my Photos.

CY

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Cyclura99

When I am asked about a opinion I give it.When I am asked for pictures from a potencial buyer I send them thinking the person is a serious collector. I made the mistake of thinking BILL was a serious Collcetor .As far as being bitter Not even close .Its about trying to point out what a collector is and what a collector is NOT. CY

Cy, we would all love to see pictures of authentic old Nias swords; please do help to educate us; post them .

The personal business though is best kept between the individuals and off the forum .

I do not moderate this particular forum but since I am the ONLY moderator online at present; I feel that I must speak up for the sake of maintaining peace in the entire forum.

Rick

[David]

Cy, why on Earth would the moderators NOT allow you to post examples of your weapons? That's what people do here, post weapons, share information, teach AND learn. We ALL have something to share and a whole lot to learn.
As for you very obviously problem with Bill, you certainly need to air that out OFF FORUM. What ever your disagreement is, it doesn't belong here. Please treat people with respect in this space, regardless of your personal feelings.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Cyclura99

When I am asked about a opinion I give it.When I am asked for pictures from a potencial buyer I send them thinking the person is a serious collector. I made the mistake of thinking BILL was a serious Collcetor .As far as being bitter Not even close .Its about trying to point out what a collector is and what a collector is NOT. Also what is REAL and what is NOT.

I believe in the truth even if its not what a person wants to read or hear only then can a person learn something.

If the Forum Moderator will allow I will post two Maybe three from my collection > REAL NIAS BALATOS WEAPONS with authentic Amulets used in the days of Head taking.

So there will be no question as to REAL and reproduction made for sale .

If this Forum is about learning then so be it.Its Up to the moderator to allow my Photos.

CY

You obviously have a personal issue with Bill. Frankly, I don't care if you do: I'm simply not interested in hearing about it. Do not use this forum to air your grievances. Take it to PM or email.

Feel free to post photos. We'd be delighted to discuss them with you.

[Dajak]

Hi Bill the tribal art dealer who sell the armour in Californie did make it complete with one off my spears .

I used to have a nice Nias collection before I start to collect Iban and Muruts weapons.

mostly of these Items went to a great friend of mine that was well known and respected and I miss him a lot because he passed away.
His name was Hank off Cyberantiqeus.

In the Netherlands you can find more about Nias than in Indonesian because we have a lot in the museum and the museum data base

Same about the kris in the Netherlands more about this sublect than anywhere else

The point that Cyclura wanna make is this an bellato that used as origin as an headhunting weapon that comes from the time they taking heads is hard to get .

So people start to copy it to make money ( we see thes on krissen mandau moro krissen weapons unfortunally they come a lot on the market if you like these items it is oke)

BUT THESE ARE MAKE FOR TOURIST AND MAKE MONEY PEOPLE WHO SEE THEM A LOT ON EBAY THINK 50 years THAT IS OLD THESE ITEMS BECOME
STANDARD NIAS PIECES BUT THEY AREN T:

It is also I see it a lot with mandau s that comes on the market if you like them it is okee but don think most of the pieces you can buy in Borneo ( Kuching very bad place to buy a mandau) that they are old and ever used for head hunting.

I know Chris has an outstanding collection of Nias stuf I send him recently
an 2 spears from an very old dutch collections that have been in the Netherlands for at least 100 years.
One off them used by an South Nias chief for headhunting.

I can reccommanded the book about Nias by Schröder but on the moment
I think the price is a little over $5,000.00 on Abebooks.
the data base in the museum of Leiden is very good Nusantara also the Kit museum in Amsterdam is very nice so take a plane to the Netherlands and I show you the Museum spots.

Regards Ben

[Bill M]

Dear Ben,

Thank you for the long post. You have some very good information. I will email with you privately and get some specific info. I find the Nias an interesting culture and want to know more.

Is the Museum database in English? It would be wonderful for you to post a link here. There are quite a few people who would be interested.

"$5,000 book"? Is that USD?

I understand about people copying authentic pieces to sell to the tourist market. Certainly this happens.

My personal focus is on Javanese keris. I have fair collection and was working with a world-class teacher. Business reasons caused me to interrupt my studies, I just did not have the quality time to invest. There is also a Javanese prohibition on displaying blades in public, including forums.

So I don’t feel comfortable posting pictures of the blades. I could post pictures of the complete piece, but then people would want to see the blades also. This is frustrating for me because I like sharing, teaching and learning.

I like people and I like the ethnographic community, so I began acquiring pieces outside the Javanese areas I was studying. Pieces that are ok to be photographed and posted..

To me, the study of Ethnographics must to take place within the understanding of the culture, the religion, the sociology, the political, the art and even architecture of the culture --- but most importantly the people of the culture.

So I use the Internet and these forums to develop relationships with people in other countries so that when I visit, I am not just going like any other tourist. I am going to meet with friends, dealers and collectors I have developed over the internet.

I also believe in abundance. There are plenty of weapons available.

I wanted a nice twistcore kris recently, but was outbid by my dear friends Dave and Lonna. While I wanted it, I recognized that it wanted to go to them, so I revel in their joy and only feel sad that my bid was such that they paid a lot more than if I had not bid.

But here are plenty more twistcore kris out here. But only one Dave and Lonna.

Now I have a few pieces. You have a few, Cy has a few --- but we are merely custodians, taking care of them. Someday, in we will personally be gone and someone else will be their custodians.

BUT the important thing (to me) the crucial thing is that we keep putting people first. The weapons are a common medium that bring us all together. But the weapons are NOT the most important thing here.

People are!

In business I am a very competitive person. My nature is one of competition. Once I decided to learn ballroom dancing. I took many private lessons with top quality teachers. I became quite good. Good enough to enter dance competitions and win.

I have always loved dancing. But I found a distasteful behavior rising in me. As I entered competitions I began to HAVE to win! I HAD to beat my friends in the dance shows. I did not like the way I was behaving.

One day, I quit the dance competitions. I realized that I was letting winning get in the way of my friendships, and you know, Ben, it wasn’t fun anymore.

I am here, on this Forum --- in this life --- to enjoy people. To learn and teach.

So let’s not lose sight of the fact that people are more important than weapons. One day when we each move on, we will not take the weapons with us, but I think that we will take our friends!

There are people who just rub us the wrong way. I don’t have a problem distancing myself from those who would try to invade my calm center. Unless attacked, I prefer to go my own way. Most of the time I walk away because I don’t care to be pulled into their negativity.

And sure, I can get irritated by people who say the way I collect is wrong. What I collect and how I collect is my business and my lifestyle.

Life is like a salad bar, you walk up and make your choices. Sometimes you ask your friend, “Is that good?” Sometimes you make different choices. But I think it is improper to tell your friend he should not eat the anchovies because you don’t like them! If he doesn’t like what you order, he is free to order something else.

We will have agreements and disagreements. I like an environment where we can discuss and learn. In another thread I have posted an Ethiopian sword. Some people think the hilt is Rhino horn. Others think it is something else.

I really don't know, but I am enjoying the conversation and learning. For example Rhino is preferred as a sword hilt because when it gets wet, it becomes more sticky and the hand can hold it better.

Another post tells me that this mystery sword I bought because I like the handle and shape is from Sumatra. And we talk about it for a while. And I make new, and interesting friends.

Real estate has been good for me. I can pretty much buy what I want, but I recognize that many of my friends here are not in that position. Sometimes I accidentally overbid a friend or Forumite. Often I email them and apologize and ask if they want the piece for my bid.

And sure, I ask for help from experts. I do this in business as well. I spend a lot of money with CPAs, income tax lawyers, appraisers and portfolio analysts.

Why not ask for help from people on this Forum who have spent a lot of time studying a particular area? I find a Vietnamese crossbow. I have never even seen one before. I will ask a Forumite his opinion. He sees these pieces and is familiar with them. I would be a fool NOT to ask his opinion.

If I find I am being solicited by a dealer I have never heard of before. I WILL ask around. Some dealers are solid knowledgeable people. Some are not. I don’t care to waste my time. Please understand that my last remark is NOT aimed at anyone.

So that is me. Now I want to go and play with my kris. BTW I do think that kris and keris have a very special place in the world. They seem like living beings. They love attention. I have a hard time seeing one be mistreated without saying something.

My God, my wife, my close friends, my dogs and my keris, in that order. It works for me!

[Dajak]

Hi Bill ok I wait for your email and tell you more

yes the book is that price

2. Nias. Etnographische, geographische en historische aanteekeningen en studien.
Schröder,E.E.W.G.
Bookseller: Antiquariaat A. Kok & Zn. B.V.
(Amsterdam, NL, Netherlands) Price: US$ 5041.28
(EUR 3850.00)
[Convert Currency] Shipping within Netherlands:
US$ 7.88 (EUR 6.20)
[Rates & Speeds]
Book Description: Leiden, 1917., 1917. 2 vols. XXXVI,866,27 pp. 127 plts & 1 map. H.calf.*Modern h.leather. Sever light remains of waterstains in text and maps. Still a very usefull copy of a very rare work. Bookseller Inventory # 159481

This is what you need the best study there is on Nias but you have to learn also Dutch language.

and that is not so easy as Dancing