Yatagan questions

Valjhun · 3rd October 2006, 06:26 PM

Hi Nazgul!

You have two verry nice pieces there. The first is the most typical example of Sarajevo manufacture from 19th century. The hilt seems to be bone. The mountings could be newer than the blade. I would guess around 1850-1880.

The second one is a real sweetie. Balkan provvenience also, but more difficult to say for exactly and The mountings seems contemporary. The hilt is walrus ivory.

Any chances you want to sell the pair?

spiral · 3rd October 2006, 06:47 PM

Both look like walrus ivory to me. Just the core pattern is more evident in the darker one & was from a larger tusk.

Spiral

Rick · 3rd October 2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Both look like walrus ivory to me. Just the core pattern is more evident in the darker one & was from a larger tusk.

Spiral

Agreed .
The stuff was also known as fish bone if I recall correctly.

Two very lovely Yataghans !

the_Nazgul · 3rd October 2006, 07:43 PM

Thanks for the translation Zifir!

Sorry Valjhun, but I won't sell them. I guess I won't be that lucky a second time to get such a present

My grandfather (who I've never met, he died long before my birth) purchased those two pieces in the 1950s, but my grandmother had no further informatin about them. But she knows about my gread interest for blades of all kinds

@ariel - ok, so no wootz steel in yatagans. Thanks for the info!

I attached two more pictures of the inscriptions on the larger one (I just noticed I only uploaded a photo of one of the two inscriptions so far)

erlikhan · 4th October 2006, 01:26 AM

Very nice pieces.Completely original and intact with no restorations. Zifir,your existence here is a great plus,as the only member who can read and translate Turkish written in Ottoman alphabet. I must learn that too,when I find some free time.I just need to ask about the date on the first one. It must be 1216 instead of 1116,not? I think age would matter a lot on the rarity and price of a piece so intact and complete,especially if it is an early date like 1704.

ariel · 4th October 2006, 01:40 AM

The silver one is 1216, the gold one is 1116. That's my reading, too

Zifir · 4th October 2006, 02:34 AM

erlikhan,
Thank you for your comment. I did not have much experience in reading and translating inscriptions on swords or other materials, I am used to read formal documents and historical texts. I learned that you cannot expect similar formality from yatagan inscriptions. Most of the time, there are no rules and the people who inscribed them can be considered between being literate and illeterate. I am learning it by doing it. My interest in yatagans is just forcing me to do it

Of course, my only expertise is reading the inscriptions. I can't say much about age or other specifications of a yatagan by just looking its material. I believe my reading as 1116 is correct. But to state the obvious that's just an inscription and there is no rule that an inscription cannot not lie. I suppose there were also Grand Bazaar seller type guys back then...

RSWORD · 4th October 2006, 03:40 AM

While we cannot determine from your pictures whether or not your blades are wootz I can say that there are examples of wootz bladed yataghans, albeit not that common. There is a lovely example of one pictured in Sasche's book "Damascus Steel" on p. 79, figure 127. I also know of several examples in private collections.

erlikhan · 4th October 2006, 10:38 AM

Zifir,sorry.

My confusement because the dates of the two swords are very similar. I didnt notice the date on the gold one and thought you wrote 1216 for the upper picture. Then yes, gold one is a real rarity and beauty,as it is so complete and intact with especially 300 years of age! And about literacy level of artisans writing on yataghans, yes I have heard it from several experts before.Much of them were inscribed by less literate swordmakers, perhaps many of them just copying 'shapes' written on a paper and given to them.

ariel · 3rd October 2006, 06:54 PM

Wish I had grandmothers like yours....
Very nice Yataghans. Traditionally, ivory hiltswith corals and repoussed scabbards were attributed to the Balkans.
As to wootz..... Rarely were Yataghans made of mechanical Damascus, and most of those that were , had "Turkish ribbon" as a pattern. I do not think I've ever seen a wootz Yataghan . Wootz was primarily an Iranian specialty and they were not fond of the Ottoman Turks or their national weapons.

3rd October 2006, 07:43 PM	#4
the_Nazgul Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2	Thanks for the translation Zifir! Sorry Valjhun, but I won't sell them. I guess I won't be that lucky a second time to get such a present My grandfather (who I've never met, he died long before my birth) purchased those two pieces in the 1950s, but my grandmother had no further informatin about them. But she knows about my gread interest for blades of all kinds @ariel - ok, so no wootz steel in yatagans. Thanks for the info! I attached two more pictures of the inscriptions on the larger one (I just noticed I only uploaded a photo of one of the two inscriptions so far) Attached Images

3rd October 2006, 06:26 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Hi Nazgul! You have two verry nice pieces there. The first is the most typical example of Sarajevo manufacture from 19th century. The hilt seems to be bone. The mountings could be newer than the blade. I would guess around 1850-1880. The second one is a real sweetie. Balkan provvenience also, but more difficult to say for exactly and The mountings seems contemporary. The hilt is walrus ivory. Any chances you want to sell the pair?

3rd October 2006, 06:47 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Both look like walrus ivory to me. Just the core pattern is more evident in the darker one & was from a larger tusk. Spiral

4th October 2006, 01:26 AM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Very nice pieces.Completely original and intact with no restorations. Zifir,your existence here is a great plus,as the only member who can read and translate Turkish written in Ottoman alphabet. I must learn that too,when I find some free time.I just need to ask about the date on the first one. It must be 1216 instead of 1116,not? I think age would matter a lot on the rarity and price of a piece so intact and complete,especially if it is an early date like 1704.

4th October 2006, 01:40 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The silver one is 1216, the gold one is 1116. That's my reading, too

4th October 2006, 02:34 AM	#7
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	erlikhan, Thank you for your comment. I did not have much experience in reading and translating inscriptions on swords or other materials, I am used to read formal documents and historical texts. I learned that you cannot expect similar formality from yatagan inscriptions. Most of the time, there are no rules and the people who inscribed them can be considered between being literate and illeterate. I am learning it by doing it. My interest in yatagans is just forcing me to do it Of course, my only expertise is reading the inscriptions. I can't say much about age or other specifications of a yatagan by just looking its material. I believe my reading as 1116 is correct. But to state the obvious that's just an inscription and there is no rule that an inscription cannot not lie. I suppose there were also Grand Bazaar seller type guys back then...

4th October 2006, 03:40 AM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,093	While we cannot determine from your pictures whether or not your blades are wootz I can say that there are examples of wootz bladed yataghans, albeit not that common. There is a lovely example of one pictured in Sasche's book "Damascus Steel" on p. 79, figure 127. I also know of several examples in private collections.

4th October 2006, 10:38 AM	#9
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Zifir,sorry. My confusement because the dates of the two swords are very similar. I didnt notice the date on the gold one and thought you wrote 1216 for the upper picture. Then yes, gold one is a real rarity and beauty,as it is so complete and intact with especially 300 years of age! And about literacy level of artisans writing on yataghans, yes I have heard it from several experts before.Much of them were inscribed by less literate swordmakers, perhaps many of them just copying 'shapes' written on a paper and given to them.

3rd October 2006, 06:54 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wish I had grandmothers like yours.... Very nice Yataghans. Traditionally, ivory hiltswith corals and repoussed scabbards were attributed to the Balkans. As to wootz..... Rarely were Yataghans made of mechanical Damascus, and most of those that were , had "Turkish ribbon" as a pattern. I do not think I've ever seen a wootz Yataghan . Wootz was primarily an Iranian specialty and they were not fond of the Ottoman Turks or their national weapons.