¿ YATAGAN SABER?

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2005, 08:31 PM

This is a great example of Afghan/Uzbek sabre, which are fascinating if nothing else for thier scarcity here in the west. As has been noted, the blade does seem to be of characteristic trade form, whether German or possibly Styrian is unclear, however European in any case.

The use of the term shaska seems ineffective applied to these, and its use seems compelled by the obvious similarity in hilt form, especially the cleft pommel.While I cannot speak with any authority linguistically, it seems the term shashka is actually Russian, and refers to the Caucasian sabres that were later adopted into military pattern in Cossack regiments.
Terminology referring to edged weapons is often misinterpreted, misused and above all, misunderstood with many colloquial terms being typically applied 'collectors terms' for the sake of descriptive reference.

The use of the term 'Islamic' in describing edged weapons common within the geo-religious cultural sphere has often been the topic of debate, since there are occasions when that description may not best identify comprehensively all the weapons included.
In the Caucusus, which includes Circassia (where the sabre later known as the shashka developed) as well as Muslim Daghestan and Chechnya, also includes the important Republic of Georgia, which is distinctly Orthodox Christian and interestingly does in degree know the 'shashka', there are instances of these indiginous weapons known to both Muslim and Christian factions.

In Uzbekistan, as well as in bordering Afghanistan, these sabres are certainly not known as 'shashkas', to which Lebedynsky alludes by using the term psuedo-shashkas, and is referring to the term itself rather than the sword form. A number of years ago in a discussion concerning the differences in Afghan vs. Uzbek 'shashkas' , Torben Flindt wisely stated, "weapons have no geographic boundaries", which summarily described the general folly in trying to be too precise in such identifications.

Concerning the reference of smaller weapons often considered to be 'childrens weapons' it is important to consider the possibility of weapons intended for varying application, especially if the hilt itself is still of the size for the adult hand. Sometimes shorter bladed weapons are intended for use in closer quarters, such as versions of the Chinese dao with short blades that were used in crowded alleys and municipal situations. Also, the obvious shorter and heavier blades for maritime use in shipboard melee.
While most Caucasian sabres are clearly intended for mounted use, it may be that Afghan or Uzbek examples may occasion forms for use in the often crowded quarters of cities.

Regarding the hilts of Caucasian as well as Uzbek/Afghan sabres, these typically have the distinctive guardless hilts descend deep into the throat of the scabbard, often receiving the majority of the hilt.

Best regards,
Jim

Rivkin · 7th February 2005, 09:35 PM

1. Risking to provoke the rage of many, I don't believe that in all but the most simple of the cases, any classification based on religion/geography is a fail-proof.

Appealing to Oakeshott who gives an example of a sword that goes through half a dozen countries to be finally found in Danish swamp and to be classified by an overzelaous researcher as a "typical danish sword".

Yes, Solingen blades in shashka mounts, even if those are made in Saudi Arabia will be accepted by Circassian invention shashka, just as another Solingen blade in Karabela-like mounts by many will be considered a Polish invention, Hussar Sabre.

2. Asia vs Caucasian classification is due to Tsar's edicts that classified Cossack weapons (shashkas with hilt partially in the scabbard) as of "asian" type (being produced originally in Dagestan and Ingushetia and later everywhere). Another type, with the hilt outside of scabbard will be considered "Caucasian".

7th February 2005, 08:31 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,590	This is a great example of Afghan/Uzbek sabre, which are fascinating if nothing else for thier scarcity here in the west. As has been noted, the blade does seem to be of characteristic trade form, whether German or possibly Styrian is unclear, however European in any case. The use of the term shaska seems ineffective applied to these, and its use seems compelled by the obvious similarity in hilt form, especially the cleft pommel.While I cannot speak with any authority linguistically, it seems the term shashka is actually Russian, and refers to the Caucasian sabres that were later adopted into military pattern in Cossack regiments. Terminology referring to edged weapons is often misinterpreted, misused and above all, misunderstood with many colloquial terms being typically applied 'collectors terms' for the sake of descriptive reference. The use of the term 'Islamic' in describing edged weapons common within the geo-religious cultural sphere has often been the topic of debate, since there are occasions when that description may not best identify comprehensively all the weapons included. In the Caucusus, which includes Circassia (where the sabre later known as the shashka developed) as well as Muslim Daghestan and Chechnya, also includes the important Republic of Georgia, which is distinctly Orthodox Christian and interestingly does in degree know the 'shashka', there are instances of these indiginous weapons known to both Muslim and Christian factions. In Uzbekistan, as well as in bordering Afghanistan, these sabres are certainly not known as 'shashkas', to which Lebedynsky alludes by using the term psuedo-shashkas, and is referring to the term itself rather than the sword form. A number of years ago in a discussion concerning the differences in Afghan vs. Uzbek 'shashkas' , Torben Flindt wisely stated, "weapons have no geographic boundaries", which summarily described the general folly in trying to be too precise in such identifications. Concerning the reference of smaller weapons often considered to be 'childrens weapons' it is important to consider the possibility of weapons intended for varying application, especially if the hilt itself is still of the size for the adult hand. Sometimes shorter bladed weapons are intended for use in closer quarters, such as versions of the Chinese dao with short blades that were used in crowded alleys and municipal situations. Also, the obvious shorter and heavier blades for maritime use in shipboard melee. While most Caucasian sabres are clearly intended for mounted use, it may be that Afghan or Uzbek examples may occasion forms for use in the often crowded quarters of cities. Regarding the hilts of Caucasian as well as Uzbek/Afghan sabres, these typically have the distinctive guardless hilts descend deep into the throat of the scabbard, often receiving the majority of the hilt. Best regards, Jim

7th February 2005, 09:35 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	1. Risking to provoke the rage of many, I don't believe that in all but the most simple of the cases, any classification based on religion/geography is a fail-proof. Appealing to Oakeshott who gives an example of a sword that goes through half a dozen countries to be finally found in Danish swamp and to be classified by an overzelaous researcher as a "typical danish sword". Yes, Solingen blades in shashka mounts, even if those are made in Saudi Arabia will be accepted by Circassian invention shashka, just as another Solingen blade in Karabela-like mounts by many will be considered a Polish invention, Hussar Sabre. 2. Asia vs Caucasian classification is due to Tsar's edicts that classified Cossack weapons (shashkas with hilt partially in the scabbard) as of "asian" type (being produced originally in Dagestan and Ingushetia and later everywhere). Another type, with the hilt outside of scabbard will be considered "Caucasian".