Minang Keris with mixed influences?

VVV · 26th September 2006, 10:29 PM

Alam Shah,

I am impressed by your humbleness

On the gap I don't think it's that prominent.
When in the sheath it fits tight and doesn't move or "rattle".
But you are correct that there is some small space on the top of the sheath.

On Gayo Keris I think the best source is Sejr Jensen's book.
Obviously Bambang Harsrinuksmo thought so too.

Henk,

Is it the blade you don't think fit the dress or is it because of the pictures of the Keris in the sheath?
Do you have some other reference pictures of Indragiri style Keris and their blades as a comparison?
Indragiri has historical influences from Aceh, Java, Bugis, Portugal, India, Arabic countries, Holland etc.

Michael

drdavid · 27th September 2006, 05:31 AM

Hi VVV
is it just the photos or is the hilt not a good fit in the hilt cup?
DrD

VVV · 27th September 2006, 06:05 AM

Hi DrD,

Now you make me insecure.
But if you compare with the following Keris, the first Panjang in my archive, that has the same kind of Selut it seems to have a similar fit.
Maybe it's because of that I turn the handles in all directions when taking pictures (instead of turning the complete Keris)?
Or maybe none of them fits?
I will take it apart tonight when back home and have a really close look.

Michael

David · 27th September 2006, 02:42 PM

Michael, could you post a photo looking down on the top of the sheath with the keris in it so we can better see the fit. From the photo you provided i would also venture that this sheath wasn't made for this blade. As for the blade origin, My first thought was also that it might be Javanese. Still, if i am not mistaken, you will find many Sumatran blades that look very similar to blades from Jawa as, i believe, parts of Sumatra where once under the influence of the Javanese court and therefore made their keris to Javanese specifications of the time.
BTW, the hilt is beautiful!

VVV · 27th September 2006, 06:34 PM

It's to dark here now for pictures now but having a closer look I agree with you all.
The length of the blade is matching but the opening in the sheath is to big for the Keris.
So I agree that the blade probably isn't the original for the sheath.
I was to excited about the Indragiri hilt and the strange sheath to think about it.

Do you think the hilt and the sheath belong together?
I haven't seen any Indragiri sheaths to compare with myself.

Michael

Henk · 27th September 2006, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Still, if i am not mistaken, you will find many Sumatran blades that look very similar to blades from Jawa as, i believe, parts of Sumatra where once under the influence of the Javanese court and therefore made their keris to Javanese specifications of the time.
BTW, the hilt is beautiful!

As far as I know javanese blades where exported to Sumatra as merchandise because the javanese blades where highly appreciated on Sumatra. It is not unusual to find a javanese blade in a sumatran dress.

David, where did you found that? Or is there one of the more knowledgeable members who can confirm that? It is of course not unlikely that that happened, but I never heard or read about it. And if keris where made to javanese specifications due to influence of the javanese court, why not the dress??

kai · 27th September 2006, 07:20 PM

Hello Henk,

That was on this forum, a few months ago.

If I recall correctly, it was the Palembang sultanate having close ties and some of the keris crafted during this period are quite difficult to tell from their Javanese counterparts...

Regards,
Kai

David · 27th September 2006, 11:15 PM

Thanks Kai, that is as i understand it as well. This was not information that i have read anywhere. It was related to me by a knowledgable member who hopefully will have more substantial information to add to this dicussion.
I can't really say why the Sumatran form of dress didn't follow suit. Perhaps the Palembang sultanate felt that the public part of the keris should reflect the Sumatran identity, while the blade itself, always a symbol of the right of rule, should follow the form of the Javanese court. This is, of course, mere speculation.

Henk · 27th September 2006, 02:39 PM

Michael,

I'm afraid I have no reference pictures to show you.

I think the keris doesn't fit the dress because you can see on the picture that the blade doesn't fit perfectly in the wrangka. In my opinion the blade was put in this scabbard because the blade was going in and had a reasonable fit. So the sheath was a replacement.

26th September 2006, 10:29 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alam Shah, I am impressed by your humbleness On the gap I don't think it's that prominent. When in the sheath it fits tight and doesn't move or "rattle". But you are correct that there is some small space on the top of the sheath. On Gayo Keris I think the best source is Sejr Jensen's book. Obviously Bambang Harsrinuksmo thought so too. Henk, Is it the blade you don't think fit the dress or is it because of the pictures of the Keris in the sheath? Do you have some other reference pictures of Indragiri style Keris and their blades as a comparison? Indragiri has historical influences from Aceh, Java, Bugis, Portugal, India, Arabic countries, Holland etc. Michael

27th September 2006, 05:31 AM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Hi VVV is it just the photos or is the hilt not a good fit in the hilt cup? DrD

27th September 2006, 06:05 AM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi DrD, Now you make me insecure. But if you compare with the following Keris, the first Panjang in my archive, that has the same kind of Selut it seems to have a similar fit. Maybe it's because of that I turn the handles in all directions when taking pictures (instead of turning the complete Keris)? Or maybe none of them fits? I will take it apart tonight when back home and have a really close look. Michael

27th September 2006, 02:42 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	Michael, could you post a photo looking down on the top of the sheath with the keris in it so we can better see the fit. From the photo you provided i would also venture that this sheath wasn't made for this blade. As for the blade origin, My first thought was also that it might be Javanese. Still, if i am not mistaken, you will find many Sumatran blades that look very similar to blades from Jawa as, i believe, parts of Sumatra where once under the influence of the Javanese court and therefore made their keris to Javanese specifications of the time. BTW, the hilt is beautiful!

27th September 2006, 06:34 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	It's to dark here now for pictures now but having a closer look I agree with you all. The length of the blade is matching but the opening in the sheath is to big for the Keris. So I agree that the blade probably isn't the original for the sheath. I was to excited about the Indragiri hilt and the strange sheath to think about it. Do you think the hilt and the sheath belong together? I haven't seen any Indragiri sheaths to compare with myself. Michael

27th September 2006, 07:20 PM	#7
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Henk, That was on this forum, a few months ago. If I recall correctly, it was the Palembang sultanate having close ties and some of the keris crafted during this period are quite difficult to tell from their Javanese counterparts... Regards, Kai

27th September 2006, 11:15 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	Thanks Kai, that is as i understand it as well. This was not information that i have read anywhere. It was related to me by a knowledgable member who hopefully will have more substantial information to add to this dicussion. I can't really say why the Sumatran form of dress didn't follow suit. Perhaps the Palembang sultanate felt that the public part of the keris should reflect the Sumatran identity, while the blade itself, always a symbol of the right of rule, should follow the form of the Javanese court. This is, of course, mere speculation.

27th September 2006, 02:39 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Michael, I'm afraid I have no reference pictures to show you. I think the keris doesn't fit the dress because you can see on the picture that the blade doesn't fit perfectly in the wrangka. In my opinion the blade was put in this scabbard because the blade was going in and had a reasonable fit. So the sheath was a replacement.