Keris Banjarmasin

VVV · 18th September 2006, 05:57 PM

Thanks Marcokeris and Alam Shah,

Obviously I went through the books to fast last night when responding.

Shahrial, isn't Bhuta Nawasari a Raksasa prince or an incarnation of Shiva Bhairava?

As a collector of Visayan swords it's interesting to see the resemblence of the Leiden Keris hilt to the deity hilts of those swords?

Maybe those hilts are from the time when the Javanese Hindu influence was dominating Banjarmasin?

Michael

David · 18th September 2006, 09:23 PM

Michael, why do you feel that the ivory hilt is not from Bali?

VVV · 18th September 2006, 10:42 PM

David,

Sorry, but I never commented the ivory hilt, found in Bali, above?
I wanted to focus on Banjarmasin in this thread.
Maybe some misunderstanding of what I wrote because English is not my native tongue?
But now when you bring it up it looks to me more like an East Javanese Nawasari (a blood drinking demon)? Also the bottom part of the hilt is not the usual shape to fit a Balinese Selut?
But I am aware of that there was a lot of cultural exchange between the old Hindu kingdom of Balambangan, East Java, and the neighbouring Bali so it's really hard to say for sure...

Michael

David · 18th September 2006, 11:55 PM

Sorry Michael, my bad. Marco made that comment when he posted the picture originally.

Alam Shah · 19th September 2006, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Shahrial, isn't Bhuta Nawasari a Raksasa prince or an incarnation of Shiva Bhairava?

Maybe those hilts are from the time when the Javanese Hindu influence was dominating Banjarmasin?

With reference from Karsten Sejr Jensen's book, "Den Indonesiske Kris. Et symbolladet vaben", Pg:64-84. (English summary), Bhuta Nawasari or Siva Bhairava or raksasa prince are the same. Correct me if I'm wrong.

David · 19th September 2006, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

With reference from Karsten Sejr Jensen's book, "Den Indonesiske Kris. Et symbolladet vaben", Pg:64-84. (English summary), Bhuta Nawasari or Siva Bhairava or raksasa prince are the same. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't own this book, but i imagine your take on this reference is correct. I will, however, question the reference itself. Siva Bhairava ia an aspect of the god Siva (though certainly a terrible aspect). Bhuta Nawasari, as prince or king of the raksasa, is a demon. Can gods be demons (or visa versa) in the Hindu religion?

Alam Shah · 19th September 2006, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I don't own this book, but i imagine your take on this reference is correct. I will, however, question the reference itself. Siva Bhairava ia an aspect of the god Siva (though certainly a terrible aspect). Bhuta Nawasari, as prince or king of the raksasa, is a demon. Can gods be demons (or visa versa) in the Hindu religion?

It's this book: The Indonesian Kris, A symbol charged weapon, written in Danish with English summaries. Hmmm... while checking the reference, I misunderstoond the meaning...Oppss!

my mistake. I guess the forms are not the same. The hilt form is either one of the 3. Which one, I don't know, sorry. Perhaps others can assist.

VVV · 19th September 2006, 07:00 AM

I think Karsten means that the three aspects are the same - direct, or indirect, manifestations of an aspect of Shiva Bhairavi.

Kerner also mentions this in "the big book" p. 77-81.
The logic seems to be, according to Kerner, that Bhutanata is Shiva as the Lord of the evil spirits. The Bhutas serve Bhutanata as punishers when he is a judge. The Bhutas eat flesh and drink blood. Bhuta Navasari is also known as Raksasa Bhairawa. The Bhairawas are the 8 x 8 terrible manifestations of Shiva.

Michael

Marcokeris · 19th September 2006, 08:04 AM

Alam,
Kerner's book is "keris griffe aus museen und privat sammlungen" pag. 144.

David,
I think the handle comes from Jawa only for a certain similarity with tegal /cirebon handle and for the base of handle that is simply curved without angles (but it is only my impression, my be it comes from Bali. Also the seller didn't know where it comes)

Alam Shah · 19th September 2006, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Alam,
Kerner's book is "keris griffe aus museen und privat sammlungen" pag. 144.

No wonder I cannot find.

I don't have that book. Btw, Kerner do have a few books.

18th September 2006, 10:42 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	David, Sorry, but I never commented the ivory hilt, found in Bali, above? I wanted to focus on Banjarmasin in this thread. Maybe some misunderstanding of what I wrote because English is not my native tongue? But now when you bring it up it looks to me more like an East Javanese Nawasari (a blood drinking demon)? Also the bottom part of the hilt is not the usual shape to fit a Balinese Selut? But I am aware of that there was a lot of cultural exchange between the old Hindu kingdom of Balambangan, East Java, and the neighbouring Bali so it's really hard to say for sure... Michael Last edited by VVV; 18th September 2006 at 10:58 PM.

18th September 2006, 05:57 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Marcokeris and Alam Shah, Obviously I went through the books to fast last night when responding. Shahrial, isn't Bhuta Nawasari a Raksasa prince or an incarnation of Shiva Bhairava? As a collector of Visayan swords it's interesting to see the resemblence of the Leiden Keris hilt to the deity hilts of those swords? Maybe those hilts are from the time when the Javanese Hindu influence was dominating Banjarmasin? Michael

18th September 2006, 09:23 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Michael, why do you feel that the ivory hilt is not from Bali?

18th September 2006, 11:55 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Sorry Michael, my bad. Marco made that comment when he posted the picture originally.

19th September 2006, 07:00 AM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I think Karsten means that the three aspects are the same - direct, or indirect, manifestations of an aspect of Shiva Bhairavi. Kerner also mentions this in "the big book" p. 77-81. The logic seems to be, according to Kerner, that Bhutanata is Shiva as the Lord of the evil spirits. The Bhutas serve Bhutanata as punishers when he is a judge. The Bhutas eat flesh and drink blood. Bhuta Navasari is also known as Raksasa Bhairawa. The Bhairawas are the 8 x 8 terrible manifestations of Shiva. Michael

19th September 2006, 08:04 AM	#9
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Alam, Kerner's book is "keris griffe aus museen und privat sammlungen" pag. 144. David, I think the handle comes from Jawa only for a certain similarity with tegal /cirebon handle and for the base of handle that is simply curved without angles (but it is only my impression, my be it comes from Bali. Also the seller didn't know where it comes)