Madura Wrongko's of Various Types?

[Rick]

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey
Rick---why do you think this is Madura dress? The wrongko is Jogja, although the handle is Madura.

Because the shape is so similar to the one you present as Madura and the one David also presents . I perceive a similar certain lack of 'belly' on the left hand end .
I guess I need a finer eye to discern Jogya gayaman wrongkos from Maduran .

[Alam Shah]

Are there names to identify the various types of sheath form?
Afaik, from the pictures... Ladrang Madura, Gayaman Madura and Sandang Walikat Madura in general.

David, your 1st piece, the sheath form is interesting and a beauty (the bird hilt too.) Your horn Sandang Walikat sheath is exquisite.

Alan, what are these type called? This one, the wings reminds me of the piece from Nagasasra's "Unusual Keris Dress from where?" thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=13594&stc=1

This one, the central panel is typical of Maduran carvings, common especially on Donoriko hilt form. But its unique on this sheath form.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=13613&stc=1

This one, upper portion of the wrangka, looks almost a Malay form, except for the carvings and the curves at the lower part of the cross-piece.


Interesting thread...

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm sorry, I cannot give names on Madura keris with any authority, and it is not my habit to say something unless I can back it up.

I have visited Madura a few times, and have spent a bit of time in the area of Suminep, but even when I was there, I was getting given different names for the same thing , by different people.

To be absolutely honest about this naming of things, it is something that has very little interest for me. It used to have, but as time has gone by I have found that one person will swear that something is called such and such, and then an equally qualified person will come along and call it something else, or I`ll go ten miles down the road and find it has a different name, or I`ll get a firm fix on the name of something, and then ask the same highly respected source ten years later what the same thing is called, and get a different name.

I call this whole thing :- "the name game", and I feel that the only way in which it should be played is by giving the name, along with the source, the geographic location it was obtained, and the date.

With Madura dress, some of the motifs can be identified with either Suminep or Pamekesan.

I have seen two styles of highly carved wrongkos in the Suminep Kraton museum that were identified as "gabilan", and "brahmana rsi".

I have heard stories about the origin of some motifs and some wrongko styles.

But I cannot give names for the wrongko styles, nor the handle styles, that I could present a case in court for, and win.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep Rick:- it don`t got a belly.

Proportion is totally different.

In fact, David`s patrem example, and my Bali/Madura example I see as having only a slight similarity.

Your example is inarguably Jogja---longer, thinner, quite graceful. Humanise it. What do you see? Personally, I see a graceful woman in the prime of life.

Humanise my Bali/Madura and I see a middle aged housewife who likes to eat too much.

Humanise David`s and again I see a fairly substantial lady who is fond of food, and who could do with a bit of a bath and some make up.

To me, none of these wrongkos---yours, mine, David`s---look at all similar.

We need to take very careful note of very tiny differences.

[Naga Sasra]

Quote from Alan "We need to take very careful note of very tiny differences."

Well said Alan!

Thank you for the great response so far, wonderful pieces

Here are a few more:

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Humanise David`s and again I see a fairly substantial lady who is fond of food, and who could do with a bit of a bath and some make up.

Hey....wait a minute....a bath?!
That green tinge is bad color balancing BTW. Part of why i apologized for my picture quality. The horn on the sandang walikat is green horn, but the color isn't quite that green. Hey, maybe they all need a bath.
Alan is right, of course. There are lots of small subtle differences which seperate these sheaths as specific variations on a form.
As for the name game, i tend to agree with Alan, though i guess it helps to at least have names for the general form types. In that sense i would guess that my first two examples are ladrang forms (formal), the bone horse head patrem is also a ladrang form, the ivory patrem is gayaman and the horn sheath is obviously sandang. The problem with this though is that i have no idea which of these catagories some of Alan's pieces would fall into. Would the sheath with the bird w/the floral design in the center be a formal dress sheath. What about the one with the horse that is basically the same shape. To me the lion sheaths that are known to be connnected with keris taken home by Dutch soldiers appear to be based on a gayaman form. Do these sheath always have the Dutch soldier connection or were some made for indigenous consumption?

[A. G. Maisey]

When I started talking abouts baths and make-up and women, I was talking figuratively. That patrem wrongko would benefit from being repolished, but if you did that you`d lose the patina so beloved of many collectors.

As to names, I've noticed that the more names I know, the more I tend towards using English names and giving English descriptions.

All the wrongkos shown in my pics were acquired in Indonesia, and all required some degree of restoration. Several were acquired in the Suminep area of Madura , including the two lions, the waterlily motif, and the bird.

This type may have been favoured by Dutch soldiers, but it would seem that some locals in Madura also had a liking for these highly ornamented pieces.

Erik, do you feel that perhaps there may be a stronger connection with East Jawa generally, than with Madura specifically, for that mamas sandang walikat?

[VVV]

"VVV--- I don't think this is a Solo style wrongko, it appears to me to be East Jawa; Madura is of course a part of East Jawa. The handle looks like an old North Coast one, not Madura."

Alan,

Thanks for correcting my description.
I find it hard to see the place of origin of some of the Putra Satu/Raksasa hilt variations.

Michael

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... I call this whole thing :- "the name game", and I feel that the only way in which it should be played is by giving the name, along with the source, the geographic location it was obtained, and the date..

Ditto on that.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

With Madura dress, some of the motifs can be identified with either Suminep or Pamekesan.

Could you further elaborate on this, please.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have heard stories about the origin of some motifs and some wrongko styles.

I would love to hear the stories.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But I cannot give names for the wrongko styles, nor the handle styles, that I could present a case in court for, and win.

It's ok if you cannot give. I won't sue you in court.

I'm not interested in "the name game" either, but would love to use common terms for the purpose of discussion. It's easier so that others could be "in the same frequency", whether we use what the locals use, English names or general form as identifier to what is being referred.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have seen two styles of highly carved wrongkos in the Suminep Kraton museum that were identified as "gabilan", and "brahmana rsi".

It would be nice if we could have pictures of these form.