Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

nechesh · 7th February 2005, 01:04 AM

Henk, it's not that i doubt you. You could well be right. But i think it is important to keep this discussion on an academic level, so could you please quote the sources of your information about palace empus recieving extra meteoric pamor material whenever they made a court keris with one. Did kraton empus actually make keris for clients outside of the court? There has been so much confusion on this issue that i just can't base any conclusions on this topic based on more hearsay information.
I also don't quite get your reasoning that leads to you supposing that meteoric pamor was more well known. The Prambanan fall is the ONLY one i am aware of. Are you just assuming that there were smaller meteorites that fell and were used? Is there ANY documentation of this. I need more to go on.

Montino Bourbon · 7th February 2005, 01:38 AM

I have heard of one technique that (supposedly) was used in Japan:
Micro-meteorites fell to the earth and were washed into rivers; and these small nickel-iron meteorites were recovered by dragging large magnets through dry river beds in summer, when the rivers were dry. The resultant iron could be incorporated with other iron, and because of its high nickel content could be processed and refined by forge-folding.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th February 2005, 04:22 PM

Thank you for your answers, although not all tried to answer my question.
Master (Ustad) Daud said to Shah Jahangir, ‘that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces’.
If Master Daud could say like that, he must have known meteoric iron, otherwise he could/would not have made such a statement.
Meteoric iron must have been known, at least among some of the better weapon smiths, other wise he could not have said that the iron would fall to pieces when hammered on, and he knew how much other iron he had to mix it with, to make it possible for him to make two swords a dagger and a knife. To have this knowledge it must have been tried many times before.
Although there, no doubt is much mysticism and symbolism involved in making swords in India, I think this is even more so when it comes to making kerise’s.
The way to find meteoric iron in Japan sounds interesting, although I have never read about it.

BSMStar · 7th February 2005, 04:47 PM

Jens Nordlunde:

No doubt some nickel-iron type are not well suited for direct hammering. There are several factors to take into consideration... the crystal structure of the meteorite (from fine to coarse octahedrite, etc.), and metallurgy for example. The Gibeon Meteorite from Namibia, Africa is an example of a nickel-iron type that you can hammer directly without forging. Again, it goes back to the odds of the right type of meteorite falling in the right place at the right time.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th February 2005, 04:58 PM

Yes I have read that there are different types of meteoric iron, and also that the one with nickle is very difficult to use, but from the structure Master Daud must have been able to estimate how much 'normal' iron he had to mix it with. To have had this knowledge, he, or others, must have tried it several times to get that knowledge

Henk · 7th February 2005, 06:22 PM

Nechesh,

Of course the discussion should be academic and not based on rumours. Kraton empus did make keris for clients outside the kraton and used the surplus of the prambanan meteorite they received to make a court keris. I did read it in a dutch book: De Inlandsche Kunstnijverheid in Nederlandsch Indie (The Inland Artwork in Dutch Indie) by J.E. Jasper and MAS Pirngadie. This book was printed and published on behalve of the dutch government in The Hague in 1930.

I translate for you the passage in that book: "As pamormetal was and is used in the royal countries, the home of pamorforge art, metoric iron, that contains few nickle and is known as pamor parambanan. It is kept in the kraton of Soerakarta. Every time when the Soesoehoenan or other courtmembers want to forge a weapon, often a much too large piece of the meteor Iron was given to the empu, who had usually left a very large part of it.
That's why that it was possible to buy pieces of the pamor parambanan for the very high price of fl 2,50 to fl 10,00 for a rejal (30 gram)" That means in the currency of today the very high price of 1 euro to 4,50 euro for 30 gram.

About the use and being well known of the meteoric iron you misunderstood me. Using meteoric iron outside Indonesia for pamorforging is not well known.
Jens wrote that in India two swords, a dagger and a knife was made from the iron of a meteor. What I ment to say is that the use of the parambanan meteor for pamor weapons is well known (at least here in Holland) and that "a weapon made from the meteor was considered as the true holy weapon with pamor parambanan or pamor toenggal" (I quoted the book) Pamor forging was also done with other metals. The same book mention "the import of nickle bars, the pure Krupp nickle from the factory of A. Krupp from Berndorf, Germany. When this was used the pamordrawing came up very clear and shiny. Much more then when the real pamor iron of Parambanan was used."

BSMStar · 8th February 2005, 02:31 AM

Prambanan meteorite is on the Finest (crystal structure) Octahedrite, around 5% nickel...
http://internt.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ear...y=P2270&index=

Also you have
Hexahedrites - low nickel bearing (up to 6%)
Octahedrites - medium nickel bearing (5 to 17%, mostly on the lower end) and classified from fine to coarse (in crystal structure) believe to be caused by the speed of cooling.
Ataxites - high nickel bearing (16% plus) note: they show no internal crystal structure.
http://www.alaska.net/~meteor/type.htm

7th February 2005, 01:04 AM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Henk, it's not that i doubt you. You could well be right. But i think it is important to keep this discussion on an academic level, so could you please quote the sources of your information about palace empus recieving extra meteoric pamor material whenever they made a court keris with one. Did kraton empus actually make keris for clients outside of the court? There has been so much confusion on this issue that i just can't base any conclusions on this topic based on more hearsay information. I also don't quite get your reasoning that leads to you supposing that meteoric pamor was more well known. The Prambanan fall is the ONLY one i am aware of. Are you just assuming that there were smaller meteorites that fell and were used? Is there ANY documentation of this. I need more to go on. Last edited by nechesh; 7th February 2005 at 03:19 AM.

8th February 2005, 02:31 AM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Some more boring information Prambanan meteorite is on the Finest (crystal structure) Octahedrite, around 5% nickel... http://internt.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ear...y=P2270&index= Also you have Hexahedrites - low nickel bearing (up to 6%) Octahedrites - medium nickel bearing (5 to 17%, mostly on the lower end) and classified from fine to coarse (in crystal structure) believe to be caused by the speed of cooling. Ataxites - high nickel bearing (16% plus) note: they show no internal crystal structure. http://www.alaska.net/~meteor/type.htm

7th February 2005, 01:38 AM	#2
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	I have heard of one technique that (supposedly) was used in Japan: Micro-meteorites fell to the earth and were washed into rivers; and these small nickel-iron meteorites were recovered by dragging large magnets through dry river beds in summer, when the rivers were dry. The resultant iron could be incorporated with other iron, and because of its high nickel content could be processed and refined by forge-folding.

7th February 2005, 04:22 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for your answers, although not all tried to answer my question. Master (Ustad) Daud said to Shah Jahangir, ‘that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces’. If Master Daud could say like that, he must have known meteoric iron, otherwise he could/would not have made such a statement. Meteoric iron must have been known, at least among some of the better weapon smiths, other wise he could not have said that the iron would fall to pieces when hammered on, and he knew how much other iron he had to mix it with, to make it possible for him to make two swords a dagger and a knife. To have this knowledge it must have been tried many times before. Although there, no doubt is much mysticism and symbolism involved in making swords in India, I think this is even more so when it comes to making kerise’s. The way to find meteoric iron in Japan sounds interesting, although I have never read about it.

7th February 2005, 04:47 PM	#4
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Jens Nordlunde: No doubt some nickel-iron type are not well suited for direct hammering. There are several factors to take into consideration... the crystal structure of the meteorite (from fine to coarse octahedrite, etc.), and metallurgy for example. The Gibeon Meteorite from Namibia, Africa is an example of a nickel-iron type that you can hammer directly without forging. Again, it goes back to the odds of the right type of meteorite falling in the right place at the right time.

7th February 2005, 04:58 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes I have read that there are different types of meteoric iron, and also that the one with nickle is very difficult to use, but from the structure Master Daud must have been able to estimate how much 'normal' iron he had to mix it with. To have had this knowledge, he, or others, must have tried it several times to get that knowledge

7th February 2005, 06:22 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Nechesh, Of course the discussion should be academic and not based on rumours. Kraton empus did make keris for clients outside the kraton and used the surplus of the prambanan meteorite they received to make a court keris. I did read it in a dutch book: De Inlandsche Kunstnijverheid in Nederlandsch Indie (The Inland Artwork in Dutch Indie) by J.E. Jasper and MAS Pirngadie. This book was printed and published on behalve of the dutch government in The Hague in 1930. I translate for you the passage in that book: "As pamormetal was and is used in the royal countries, the home of pamorforge art, metoric iron, that contains few nickle and is known as pamor parambanan. It is kept in the kraton of Soerakarta. Every time when the Soesoehoenan or other courtmembers want to forge a weapon, often a much too large piece of the meteor Iron was given to the empu, who had usually left a very large part of it. That's why that it was possible to buy pieces of the pamor parambanan for the very high price of fl 2,50 to fl 10,00 for a rejal (30 gram)" That means in the currency of today the very high price of 1 euro to 4,50 euro for 30 gram. About the use and being well known of the meteoric iron you misunderstood me. Using meteoric iron outside Indonesia for pamorforging is not well known. Jens wrote that in India two swords, a dagger and a knife was made from the iron of a meteor. What I ment to say is that the use of the parambanan meteor for pamor weapons is well known (at least here in Holland) and that "a weapon made from the meteor was considered as the true holy weapon with pamor parambanan or pamor toenggal" (I quoted the book) Pamor forging was also done with other metals. The same book mention "the import of nickle bars, the pure Krupp nickle from the factory of A. Krupp from Berndorf, Germany. When this was used the pamordrawing came up very clear and shiny. Much more then when the real pamor iron of Parambanan was used."