Fighting with keris

David · 12th September 2006, 09:56 PM

Pak Bambang, i am assuming (please correct me if i am wrong) that from your post you are of the school of thought which does NOT believe that the keris was ever used as a weapon for fighting in Jawa. Certainly the metaphysical designation of the keris and it's various parts is an interesting and very valuable discussion. I would much appreciate it if you would actually start a new thread devoted to this line of thought. I think that even those who believe the keris WAS used as a true weapon would not argue that this philosphical manner of interacting with the keris is an established school of thought. The question is whether or not it was always this way or developed into this school over the centuries.
Your source for the word keris, mengKER kerono aRIS = keris, is also very interesting and i have heard this before. However, it would seem best not to present this as an undisputed fact. I have heard many different root sources for the word keris, but i do not believe any of them are cut and dry sources. I honor your right to believe yours is the correct source (and it may well be), but what you are presenting is open to debate.
Do you accept that the keris was used for fighting in other parts of Indonesia such as Bali, Sulawesi or the Peninsula?

Bambang Irian · 12th September 2006, 10:30 PM

Pak David, in Bali i know exactly keris not for fighting except Puputan, here i will not explain about what is Puputan. In Bali they keep keris in Holly Room, or in Pura (as Pertime), but keris for collection is different.

Just for an example in Kosamba War, Anak Agung Istri Kania and her troops killed General Michiels and some of his leutenants not using keris but using tombak n gun, keris just for sikep.

David · 12th September 2006, 11:08 PM

Just to be clear, i do not believe anyone here is suggesting that the keris was used as a prime weapon of war. Even before the introduction of the gun tombak would have been a perferred weapon in warfare over the keris. It has been put forth that the keris once acted as a personal side arm that might protect from theives or other troubles on the road, for instance.
The Kusamba war and the Puputans are both fairly recent events in the great scheme of the keris. But are attitudes that were held then or today the same attitudes that were held during the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries? Can anyone show proof of this?

A. G. Maisey · 13th September 2006, 01:24 AM

Bram, I thank you most sincerely for your respectful form of address, however, since I am not Indonesian, and this is an English language forum, I would feel more comfortable with observation of English language convention by using only my name, without the title "Pak". Even though we have not been formally introduced, you may use my first name, rather than my family name.

Thank you for your explanation, Bram.

I understand your reference now. The word is "cencem", to soak in oil and poison. This appears to be another example of dialect difference that makes Javanese such a nightmare of a language.I am aware of this practice, and in my files I have several recipes for preparation of the soak medium. I have no doubt at all that you may have seen blades being prepared for use in this way, my only question related to the word you used.

Yes, kanuragan can be a part of pencak silat, or it can stand alone, but it is not a synonym for pencak silat. Kanuragan is perhaps more similar to tenaga dalam , than to the pencak forms, and is essentially a mystical practice, rather than a physical one.

I am not familiar with the word:- "katosan".

Can you please elucidate? Thank you.

Regarding Gusti Djuminah. I will preface my remarks by saying that I have only a slight understanding of the situation in Yogyakarta , and especially in the Kraton Yogya , at the time of the transmission of power from HB VII to HBVIII. However, what I have read indicates that the crown prince was a a troublemaker and obstructionist, who did indeed seem to pose future problems for the Dutch administration. In light of the wealth that HBVII accrued under Dutch policy, this would seem to have been a particularly stupid attitude to adopt, and since the well being of the people of Yogya was dependent upon the economy of the region, it could be, and apparently was, interpreted by many people as a betrayal of the people who were resident of Yogyakarta.

I can fully understand how some people, particularly a dispossessed grandson, may feel about the failure of his grandfather to take the crown, however, I would suggest that the reason for this denial of birthright by the Dutch had more to do with the political incompetence of the crown prince, rather than his interest in pencak silat.

I have absolutely no idea what could have been the cause of death in the case of the person stabbed in the thigh by a badik that had been stained with warangan.

But I am absolutely certain that it was not the warangan.

One may believe whatever one wishes in this respect, or any other, and for the person who believes that a blade treated with warangan will ensure a certain and swift death, then for that person, this is fact.However, the reality is that a blade which has been subjected to the process of warangan bears no active warangan upon its surface, and even if it did, the quantity that it might bear would be more of a medicinal nature than of death dealing one.

I did not say that Merpati Putih began prior to Kartosuro.

I said that Merpati Putih USA claimed this.

Personally, I find it very, very difficult to believe that Merpati Putih came from a royal source, or that it has roots going any further back than the 19th. century.

During colonial times practitioners of pencak silat were used by the Dutch administration as overseers. One of the ways in which an ordinary worker could gain advancement was to hone his martial arts skills and rise to the rank of an overseer or a controller. The elite of these people, known as "jago" were used by the Dutch as standover men and hit men.

The Dutch favoured Chinese people as tax collectors for a similar reason:- the Chinese martial art of kun tao---of which I can personally attest the effectiveness---seemed to be regarded at that time as a virtually unstoppable force, and as such more effective as an administrative tool than the various forms of pencak silat. So, the Chinese tax collectors could be expected , if necessary, to meet with little or no resistance from people relying on pencak silat.This, of course, is one of the principal roots of the dislike of the Chinese by the Javanese:- the Dutch employed the Chinese to collect tax and as a tool of enforcement that was more effective than the other tools of enforcement used by the Dutch.The Chinese were also more commercially able than the Javanese, so the people of Jawa were faced by a Dutch tool that had not only a commercial mentality, but had the physical ability to enforce Dutch demands.This must have been a truly horrible situation to live under.

Pencak silat appears to have entered Central Jawa during the 19th century, having been brought there by overseers whom the Dutch imported from Sunda. Sunda had been developed for Dutch purposes prior to the development of the Central Javanese plain, so when the farming lands of Central Jawa began to be exploited for Dutch gain, they used experienced overseers and controllers from their plantations in Sunda.

This appearance of pencak silat in the Javanese heartland during the 19th century would explain why Javanese literature from Centini and before appears to have no mention of pencak silat.

A further reason for the non-appearance of references in Javanese literature to pencak silat could well be because pencak silat seems to have been an art of the masses, rather than an art of the elite. Since the literature of early Jawa all comes from palace sources, one could hardly expect palace poets to write of the doings of labourers.

On the other hand, the practice of mystical exercises in attempts to gain invulnerability does sit perfectly with Javanese kraton culture of the colonial period, thus I believe we can accept that kanuragan was practiced amongst the elites during the colonial period

Let me conclude my remarks with this rider:-

I have no interest in any martial art, and I have no agenda to promote one martial art above any other, equally, I have no intent to denigrate any martial art.

I have a high respect for all martial artists because of their dedication to an athletic ideal that embodies both physical and mental prowess.

The martial arts of Jawa form a part of the culture of Jawa, and as such have my respect, however, to misrepresent, or to distort the true history and nature of this cultural element of Jawa is to do a disservice to the cultural inheritance of the Javanese people.

A. G. Maisey · 13th September 2006, 01:54 AM

I personally feel that Pak Bambang`s submission on the present day position of the keris in Javanese society belongs exactly where it is.

I think the original question was something like---"when did the keris cease to be a weapon"

Pak Bambang`s submission , I believe, is perfectly in context with the search for an answer to this question, for as he points out, he is presenting only one aspect of the nature of the keris, and that aspect relates to present day belief.

I understand perfectly where Pak Bambang is coming from, and although I do not personally agree with this position, I would be a fool if I did not acknowledge that for many people in present day Jawa, what Pak Bambang has written represents the truth.

This of course raises the question of the nature of truth, but truth, like history , becomes actual when sufficient people believe that something is so.

For instance, Pak Bambang has used the dapur brojol as an example to reinforce his position.

However---

the word "brojol" has the meaning:- "lower on one side than on the other"

the association of dapur brojol with the birthing process draws upon derivatives of "brojol", that is, "mbrojol", "kebrojol", and "kebrojolan"

For somebody who wishes to attach a symbolic meaning to dapur brojol, it is natural that that symbolic meaning should be to do with birth, and if sufficient people believe that the placement of a keris of dapur brojol under a bed when a woman is ready to give birth, will ease that birth, then for those people, and for the woman concerned, the keris will ease the birth.

But for an objective cynic, dapur brojol is named thus because the base of the blade is very obviously lower on one side than on the other.

Regarding the cultural position of the keris in Bali.

Pak Bambang, I regret that I must disagree with your statements in this regard.

Whilst it is true that the keris did play a part in the puputans, a study of early literature and sources makes it very clear that the keris in Bali prior to European domination of Bali, very definitely fulfilled a weapon role. Most certainly, the role of the Balinese keris as a weapon varied significantly from the role of the spear, the sword, and firearms, but this current sanitisation of the Balinese keris is completely off the mark when measured against the evidence.

David · 13th September 2006, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I personally feel that Pak Bambang`s submission on the present day position of the keris in Javanese society belongs exactly where it is.

I think the original question was something like---"when did the keris cease to be a weapon"

Pak Bambang`s submission , I believe, is perfectly in context with the search for an answer to this question, for as he points out, he is presenting only one aspect of the nature of the keris, and that aspect relates to present day belief.

Sorry Alan, i did not mean to imply that Bambang's submission was inappropriate to this thread. I was merely encouraging him to start a new thread that might go more in depth on these present day beliefs. As you point out, there are a great many people in Jawa today who accept these relatively modern philosophies of the keris as fact. I personally think there is much to be found in this approach to keris as a spiritual path. I just think that it is a subject that goes beyond the context here and is deserving of a thread of it's own.

A. G. Maisey · 13th September 2006, 04:14 AM

Yes, I take your point, David.

Perhaps we could all benefit from an exploration of this aspect of the keris.

I do still feel that Pak Bambang`s contribution belongs where it is, for my already stated reason. After all, the keris has had different natures at different times in its history, and here we have a good, clear explanation of how some people regard the nature of the keris today.

This effectively says:- in Jawa, in the year 2006, and for some indeterminate time prior to that, a body of people do not accept that the nature of the keris is that of weapon.

By clearly establishing this attitude at this time and place, it frees us to move backwards in time to the point where the keris was regarded as a weapon.

I personally see Pak Bambang`s contribution as quite valuable in establishing these parameters of time and place.

However, perhaps somebody who holds similar beliefs to those put forward by Pak Bambang may feel inclined to open new discussion along these lines.

Kiai Carita · 13th September 2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...Thank you for your explanation, Bram.

I understand your reference now. The word is "cencem", to soak in oil and poison. This appears to be another example of dialect difference that makes Javanese such a nightmare of a language.I am aware of this practice, and in my files I have several recipes for preparation of the soak medium. I have no doubt at all that you may have seen blades being prepared for use in this way, my only question related to the word you used.

Yes, kanuragan can be a part of pencak silat, or it can stand alone, but it is not a synonym for pencak silat. Kanuragan is perhaps more similar to tenaga dalam , than to the pencak forms, and is essentially a mystical practice, rather than a physical one.

I am not familiar with the word:- "katosan".

Can you please elucidate? Thank you.

Regarding Gusti Djuminah. I will preface my remarks by saying that I have only a slight understanding of the situation in Yogyakarta , and especially in the Kraton Yogya , at the time of the transmission of power from HB VII to HBVIII. However, what I have read indicates that the crown prince was a a troublemaker and obstructionist, who did indeed seem to pose future problems for the Dutch administration. In light of the wealth that HBVII accrued under Dutch policy, this would seem to have been a particularly stupid attitude to adopt, and since the well being of the people of Yogya was dependent upon the economy of the region, it could be, and apparently was, interpreted by many people as a betrayal of the people who were resident of Yogyakarta.

Alan, katosan (from the word atos) is a synonym to kanuragan. It is certainly more tenaga-dalam and magic knowledge than pencak-silat movement. Names such as Brajamusthi, Lembu Sekilan, Gelap Ngampar...

From what I know, originally Merpati Putih was also a breathing system without silat movement. The silat movement came later in the 20th century. Myself, I practise Bangau Putih, which before RI was called Kuntao. During the early Rekiblik years in Yogya, pencak silat recieved much support and developed rapidly with people like Pak Sukowinadi and Pak Harimurti teaching it to the masses. I think that Pakualam was very interested in silat as well and during the 19th century brought in teachers to teach the princes.

In Central Jawa it would seem that most silat traces it's lineage to Cimande in Bogor or to the people of Minangkabau land, or the Bugis and the Madurese. However, reading Pramoedya Ananta Toer's descriptions of Galeng's fights in his novel Arus Balik, it would seem that Pak Pram (alm) believed that pencak was already there at the fall of Majapahit. O'ong Maryono's research found the first mention of pencak silat in literature was in Kidung Sundayana in the sad story of the Pajajaran puputan against Gajahmada.

Now, back to the keris as a fighting weapon. Myself I would be inclined to believe that although the keris was used as the last weapon, the fact that many keris do not have the structural integrity to be used in a fight, makes me think that the fighting part, in Jawa, was always secondary to the sipat-kandhel function. I would imagine that if the keris was primarily a weapon, the design would have somewhat become more specialized for the purpose. If I were to make a fighting keris I would make sure there was a sturdy ada-ada and a screw type pesi to make it hold stronger in the ukiran.

You find all sorts of keris with tangguh that indicate rather ancient times, Jenggala, Kediri, for example... and also in these ancient tangguh, you have the huge variety of dhapur, some would be more suitable for fighting than the others. I would imagine that if the keris was primarily a side-arm, then there would not be that many dhapur as only the practical ones would be ordered. I believe the situation is thus in Malaysia, Sumatra, the Philippines, the Bugis all of them have rather simple and much more sturdy keris than the Jawa blade.

Regarding Gusti Juminah, the website you pointed me to was Pak Bagong's brother's website. There he is said to be membelot (to become traitor) but the subject of that site is his grandson, and to become traitor to the Dutch means to become hero to the people.

I am still interested in the angle the ukiran is fitted on to the tang. Does anyone have any information about how the Jawanese positioned the ukiran in pre-Mataram II times?

Warm salams to all,
Bram.

David · 13th September 2006, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

I am still interested in the angle the ukiran is fitted on to the tang. Does anyone have any information about how the Jawanese positioned the ukiran in pre-Mataram II times?

Bram, i wonder if your best bet on this question would be to view some of the early acquistions that are in some Dutch museums and collections. I think some of these were collected as early as the 16th century. Though it is possible that the hilts have moved position over the years i think this would be our best chance of seeing the presentation of a keris from that era.
While many keris may not have the structural integrity for fighting, many actually do. So likewise one might ask why bother making a blade with the structural integrity to fight if that is not it's intention. Why bother to temper blades. Many modern keris makers do not quelch the blade after forging for fear of destroying their work, but this was not the case with older keris. Why did mpus in the past take the risk to quelch blades is they didn't need to be battle-ready? Also it is certainly the case that many of the older blades that we see have had their structural integrity compromised by many years of acid washings. Again, pristine blades that are held in old collections that have not gone through this continual process might prove to be more structurally sound and battle ready.
Certainly there were always blades that were made purely for talismanic purposes and these may have always been thin or in some way physically unsuitable for fighting. Your point about the many different dapurs is well taken, but keep in mind that the vast majority of keris are simple, straight blades. I would not be surprised to find that different and complex dapurs were developed over the years with purely symbolic purposes involved. Still, many straight, sturdy and practical blades have come out of Jawa over the centuries which would do quite well in a fight.

A. G. Maisey · 14th September 2006, 12:09 AM

Thank you for your explanation, Bram.

This is the first time I have heard or read katosan. I understand the root, but to find this word I had to look at five different Javanese dictionaries before I found "katosan" in one of them as a derivative of "atos", and given as a synonym of "kadigdyan", which I think is a fairly commonly used word. Thanks for this knowledge.

I did not know that Bangau Putih was Kun Tao. My wife was a dedicated practitioner of kun tao in her youth, and has several fairly respected kun tao people in her family, all older people, and located in East Jawa. They still refer to kun tao as kun tao.

Your outline of the origins of silat is more or less as I understand it, but I really don`t think we can place a lot of historical credibility on the writings of a popular novelist, no matter how respected he may be. Ever watch "Angling Darmo" or any of the other Indonesian historical soaps? Or for that matter, look at the way popular writers present the history and society of any country. No, I really do feel that we must treat Pramoedya Ananta Toer's work in the way it was intended to be treated.

I am familiar with the Kidung Sundayana, and a quick check of my copies does not seem to have any mention of pencak silat. I am not claiming that the version accessed by O'ong Maryono does not mention pencak silat, however, it would be interesting to know what version that was, and what canto within the work. Do you have access to this information?

However, be that as it may, I think we can probably accept that during the period when rulers were dependent upon the physical prowess of individual warriors for the maintenance of their military power, pencak silat, or something rather like it would have been one of the required capabilities of at least some of the royal forces. I seem to recall reading somewhere that early Chinese merchants used to be accompanied by professional "empty hand" fighters when they visited Jawa. I guess there was probably some transference of knowledge from that direction too.

Regarding the keris and its capability as a weapon. When we look at an old keris now, we should try to bear in mind that what we usually see is only a shadow of what that keris was when it was new.Examination of early keris that were taken to Europe when those keris were new, or near to it, demonstrates quite conclusively that the types of keris that we are used to regarding as slight and frail, when new, were very serious weapons.I suggest reference to "Den Indonesiske Kris"--Karsten Sejr Jensen--ISSN 0108-707X.

On the subject of tangguh, one should consider the social reasons for the origin of this system of classification, before attaching too much credibilty to the alignment of any specific tangguh with a historical period.

Yes, I do understand the reversal of roles that could be applied to Gusti Djuminah, however, the fact remains that the public sources relating to this gentleman indicate that he was at the very least , politically inept. It is obvious that the Dutch could not afford to approve the installation of a traditional lord whose character and attitudes were such that it was feared he could bring economic ruin to the area over which he held control.Under HBVII enormous wealth had flowed into the Yogya area, which benefitted not only HBVII, but also his people, and not least the Dutch. It would appear that many people at that time were afraid that if Gusti Djuminah were to be installed as HBVIII Yogya would suffer economic reversal. The reason he was not installed as HBVIII was because it was believed that his taking of the crown could have resulted in economic ruin for that part of Jawa. His grandson may believe that it was because Gusti Djuminah had an interest in pencak silat, that Gusti Djuminah did not ascend the throne, personally I prefer to accept the historical version rather than the grandson`s version. But we are all free to believe that which we will.

Just as an aside:- it really does assist in understanding what occurred in Jawa, and the rest of the old Dutch East Indies, under the Dutch, if one adopts the attitude of an accountant. Every single action that involved the Dutch in the Indies, following the bankruptcy in 1798 of the VOC, and the assumption of its role by the Dutch Government, was the product of a bureaucratic philosophy administered by accountants. The Dutch were very good accountants.

This ongoing question of handle position on a Central Javanese keris is easily understood if the keris is held correctly. The blade is pinched between thumb and forefinger,at the blumbangan, and the first joint of the index finger is anchored against the gonjo, the middle finger, ring finger, and little finger lightly touch the handle but have only a guide and balance role. Held in this way, there is no pressure on the handle at all, it simply acts as an aid to blade orientation. The handle is used to draw the keris, and to replace it, but if the keris is to be used, it is not held by the handle, but by the method described above. The essence of keris use is that it must be very, very fast. Ideally so fast that the blade is not seen. Try holding a keris as I have described and see how very much faster this is than gripping it by the handle. A Javanese keris gripped by the handle really feels very clumsy and "dead".

12th September 2006, 09:56 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Pak Bambang, i am assuming (please correct me if i am wrong) that from your post you are of the school of thought which does NOT believe that the keris was ever used as a weapon for fighting in Jawa. Certainly the metaphysical designation of the keris and it's various parts is an interesting and very valuable discussion. I would much appreciate it if you would actually start a new thread devoted to this line of thought. I think that even those who believe the keris WAS used as a true weapon would not argue that this philosphical manner of interacting with the keris is an established school of thought. The question is whether or not it was always this way or developed into this school over the centuries. Your source for the word keris, mengKER kerono aRIS = keris, is also very interesting and i have heard this before. However, it would seem best not to present this as an undisputed fact. I have heard many different root sources for the word keris, but i do not believe any of them are cut and dry sources. I honor your right to believe yours is the correct source (and it may well be), but what you are presenting is open to debate. Do you accept that the keris was used for fighting in other parts of Indonesia such as Bali, Sulawesi or the Peninsula?

12th September 2006, 10:30 PM	#2
Bambang Irian Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 7	Pak David, in Bali i know exactly keris not for fighting except Puputan, here i will not explain about what is Puputan. In Bali they keep keris in Holly Room, or in Pura (as Pertime), but keris for collection is different. Just for an example in Kosamba War, Anak Agung Istri Kania and her troops killed General Michiels and some of his leutenants not using keris but using tombak n gun, keris just for sikep.

12th September 2006, 11:08 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Just to be clear, i do not believe anyone here is suggesting that the keris was used as a prime weapon of war. Even before the introduction of the gun tombak would have been a perferred weapon in warfare over the keris. It has been put forth that the keris once acted as a personal side arm that might protect from theives or other troubles on the road, for instance. The Kusamba war and the Puputans are both fairly recent events in the great scheme of the keris. But are attitudes that were held then or today the same attitudes that were held during the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries? Can anyone show proof of this?

13th September 2006, 01:24 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Bram, I thank you most sincerely for your respectful form of address, however, since I am not Indonesian, and this is an English language forum, I would feel more comfortable with observation of English language convention by using only my name, without the title "Pak". Even though we have not been formally introduced, you may use my first name, rather than my family name. Thank you for your explanation, Bram. I understand your reference now. The word is "cencem", to soak in oil and poison. This appears to be another example of dialect difference that makes Javanese such a nightmare of a language.I am aware of this practice, and in my files I have several recipes for preparation of the soak medium. I have no doubt at all that you may have seen blades being prepared for use in this way, my only question related to the word you used. Yes, kanuragan can be a part of pencak silat, or it can stand alone, but it is not a synonym for pencak silat. Kanuragan is perhaps more similar to tenaga dalam , than to the pencak forms, and is essentially a mystical practice, rather than a physical one. I am not familiar with the word:- "katosan". Can you please elucidate? Thank you. Regarding Gusti Djuminah. I will preface my remarks by saying that I have only a slight understanding of the situation in Yogyakarta , and especially in the Kraton Yogya , at the time of the transmission of power from HB VII to HBVIII. However, what I have read indicates that the crown prince was a a troublemaker and obstructionist, who did indeed seem to pose future problems for the Dutch administration. In light of the wealth that HBVII accrued under Dutch policy, this would seem to have been a particularly stupid attitude to adopt, and since the well being of the people of Yogya was dependent upon the economy of the region, it could be, and apparently was, interpreted by many people as a betrayal of the people who were resident of Yogyakarta. I can fully understand how some people, particularly a dispossessed grandson, may feel about the failure of his grandfather to take the crown, however, I would suggest that the reason for this denial of birthright by the Dutch had more to do with the political incompetence of the crown prince, rather than his interest in pencak silat. I have absolutely no idea what could have been the cause of death in the case of the person stabbed in the thigh by a badik that had been stained with warangan. But I am absolutely certain that it was not the warangan. One may believe whatever one wishes in this respect, or any other, and for the person who believes that a blade treated with warangan will ensure a certain and swift death, then for that person, this is fact.However, the reality is that a blade which has been subjected to the process of warangan bears no active warangan upon its surface, and even if it did, the quantity that it might bear would be more of a medicinal nature than of death dealing one. I did not say that Merpati Putih began prior to Kartosuro. I said that Merpati Putih USA claimed this. Personally, I find it very, very difficult to believe that Merpati Putih came from a royal source, or that it has roots going any further back than the 19th. century. During colonial times practitioners of pencak silat were used by the Dutch administration as overseers. One of the ways in which an ordinary worker could gain advancement was to hone his martial arts skills and rise to the rank of an overseer or a controller. The elite of these people, known as "jago" were used by the Dutch as standover men and hit men. The Dutch favoured Chinese people as tax collectors for a similar reason:- the Chinese martial art of kun tao---of which I can personally attest the effectiveness---seemed to be regarded at that time as a virtually unstoppable force, and as such more effective as an administrative tool than the various forms of pencak silat. So, the Chinese tax collectors could be expected , if necessary, to meet with little or no resistance from people relying on pencak silat.This, of course, is one of the principal roots of the dislike of the Chinese by the Javanese:- the Dutch employed the Chinese to collect tax and as a tool of enforcement that was more effective than the other tools of enforcement used by the Dutch.The Chinese were also more commercially able than the Javanese, so the people of Jawa were faced by a Dutch tool that had not only a commercial mentality, but had the physical ability to enforce Dutch demands.This must have been a truly horrible situation to live under. Pencak silat appears to have entered Central Jawa during the 19th century, having been brought there by overseers whom the Dutch imported from Sunda. Sunda had been developed for Dutch purposes prior to the development of the Central Javanese plain, so when the farming lands of Central Jawa began to be exploited for Dutch gain, they used experienced overseers and controllers from their plantations in Sunda. This appearance of pencak silat in the Javanese heartland during the 19th century would explain why Javanese literature from Centini and before appears to have no mention of pencak silat. A further reason for the non-appearance of references in Javanese literature to pencak silat could well be because pencak silat seems to have been an art of the masses, rather than an art of the elite. Since the literature of early Jawa all comes from palace sources, one could hardly expect palace poets to write of the doings of labourers. On the other hand, the practice of mystical exercises in attempts to gain invulnerability does sit perfectly with Javanese kraton culture of the colonial period, thus I believe we can accept that kanuragan was practiced amongst the elites during the colonial period Let me conclude my remarks with this rider:- I have no interest in any martial art, and I have no agenda to promote one martial art above any other, equally, I have no intent to denigrate any martial art. I have a high respect for all martial artists because of their dedication to an athletic ideal that embodies both physical and mental prowess. The martial arts of Jawa form a part of the culture of Jawa, and as such have my respect, however, to misrepresent, or to distort the true history and nature of this cultural element of Jawa is to do a disservice to the cultural inheritance of the Javanese people.

13th September 2006, 01:54 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I personally feel that Pak Bambang`s submission on the present day position of the keris in Javanese society belongs exactly where it is. I think the original question was something like---"when did the keris cease to be a weapon" Pak Bambang`s submission , I believe, is perfectly in context with the search for an answer to this question, for as he points out, he is presenting only one aspect of the nature of the keris, and that aspect relates to present day belief. I understand perfectly where Pak Bambang is coming from, and although I do not personally agree with this position, I would be a fool if I did not acknowledge that for many people in present day Jawa, what Pak Bambang has written represents the truth. This of course raises the question of the nature of truth, but truth, like history , becomes actual when sufficient people believe that something is so. For instance, Pak Bambang has used the dapur brojol as an example to reinforce his position. However--- the word "brojol" has the meaning:- "lower on one side than on the other" the association of dapur brojol with the birthing process draws upon derivatives of "brojol", that is, "mbrojol", "kebrojol", and "kebrojolan" For somebody who wishes to attach a symbolic meaning to dapur brojol, it is natural that that symbolic meaning should be to do with birth, and if sufficient people believe that the placement of a keris of dapur brojol under a bed when a woman is ready to give birth, will ease that birth, then for those people, and for the woman concerned, the keris will ease the birth. But for an objective cynic, dapur brojol is named thus because the base of the blade is very obviously lower on one side than on the other. Regarding the cultural position of the keris in Bali. Pak Bambang, I regret that I must disagree with your statements in this regard. Whilst it is true that the keris did play a part in the puputans, a study of early literature and sources makes it very clear that the keris in Bali prior to European domination of Bali, very definitely fulfilled a weapon role. Most certainly, the role of the Balinese keris as a weapon varied significantly from the role of the spear, the sword, and firearms, but this current sanitisation of the Balinese keris is completely off the mark when measured against the evidence.

13th September 2006, 04:14 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes, I take your point, David. Perhaps we could all benefit from an exploration of this aspect of the keris. I do still feel that Pak Bambang`s contribution belongs where it is, for my already stated reason. After all, the keris has had different natures at different times in its history, and here we have a good, clear explanation of how some people regard the nature of the keris today. This effectively says:- in Jawa, in the year 2006, and for some indeterminate time prior to that, a body of people do not accept that the nature of the keris is that of weapon. By clearly establishing this attitude at this time and place, it frees us to move backwards in time to the point where the keris was regarded as a weapon. I personally see Pak Bambang`s contribution as quite valuable in establishing these parameters of time and place. However, perhaps somebody who holds similar beliefs to those put forward by Pak Bambang may feel inclined to open new discussion along these lines.

14th September 2006, 12:09 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you for your explanation, Bram. This is the first time I have heard or read katosan. I understand the root, but to find this word I had to look at five different Javanese dictionaries before I found "katosan" in one of them as a derivative of "atos", and given as a synonym of "kadigdyan", which I think is a fairly commonly used word. Thanks for this knowledge. I did not know that Bangau Putih was Kun Tao. My wife was a dedicated practitioner of kun tao in her youth, and has several fairly respected kun tao people in her family, all older people, and located in East Jawa. They still refer to kun tao as kun tao. Your outline of the origins of silat is more or less as I understand it, but I really don`t think we can place a lot of historical credibility on the writings of a popular novelist, no matter how respected he may be. Ever watch "Angling Darmo" or any of the other Indonesian historical soaps? Or for that matter, look at the way popular writers present the history and society of any country. No, I really do feel that we must treat Pramoedya Ananta Toer's work in the way it was intended to be treated. I am familiar with the Kidung Sundayana, and a quick check of my copies does not seem to have any mention of pencak silat. I am not claiming that the version accessed by O'ong Maryono does not mention pencak silat, however, it would be interesting to know what version that was, and what canto within the work. Do you have access to this information? However, be that as it may, I think we can probably accept that during the period when rulers were dependent upon the physical prowess of individual warriors for the maintenance of their military power, pencak silat, or something rather like it would have been one of the required capabilities of at least some of the royal forces. I seem to recall reading somewhere that early Chinese merchants used to be accompanied by professional "empty hand" fighters when they visited Jawa. I guess there was probably some transference of knowledge from that direction too. Regarding the keris and its capability as a weapon. When we look at an old keris now, we should try to bear in mind that what we usually see is only a shadow of what that keris was when it was new.Examination of early keris that were taken to Europe when those keris were new, or near to it, demonstrates quite conclusively that the types of keris that we are used to regarding as slight and frail, when new, were very serious weapons.I suggest reference to "Den Indonesiske Kris"--Karsten Sejr Jensen--ISSN 0108-707X. On the subject of tangguh, one should consider the social reasons for the origin of this system of classification, before attaching too much credibilty to the alignment of any specific tangguh with a historical period. Yes, I do understand the reversal of roles that could be applied to Gusti Djuminah, however, the fact remains that the public sources relating to this gentleman indicate that he was at the very least , politically inept. It is obvious that the Dutch could not afford to approve the installation of a traditional lord whose character and attitudes were such that it was feared he could bring economic ruin to the area over which he held control.Under HBVII enormous wealth had flowed into the Yogya area, which benefitted not only HBVII, but also his people, and not least the Dutch. It would appear that many people at that time were afraid that if Gusti Djuminah were to be installed as HBVIII Yogya would suffer economic reversal. The reason he was not installed as HBVIII was because it was believed that his taking of the crown could have resulted in economic ruin for that part of Jawa. His grandson may believe that it was because Gusti Djuminah had an interest in pencak silat, that Gusti Djuminah did not ascend the throne, personally I prefer to accept the historical version rather than the grandson`s version. But we are all free to believe that which we will. Just as an aside:- it really does assist in understanding what occurred in Jawa, and the rest of the old Dutch East Indies, under the Dutch, if one adopts the attitude of an accountant. Every single action that involved the Dutch in the Indies, following the bankruptcy in 1798 of the VOC, and the assumption of its role by the Dutch Government, was the product of a bureaucratic philosophy administered by accountants. The Dutch were very good accountants. This ongoing question of handle position on a Central Javanese keris is easily understood if the keris is held correctly. The blade is pinched between thumb and forefinger,at the blumbangan, and the first joint of the index finger is anchored against the gonjo, the middle finger, ring finger, and little finger lightly touch the handle but have only a guide and balance role. Held in this way, there is no pressure on the handle at all, it simply acts as an aid to blade orientation. The handle is used to draw the keris, and to replace it, but if the keris is to be used, it is not held by the handle, but by the method described above. The essence of keris use is that it must be very, very fast. Ideally so fast that the blade is not seen. Try holding a keris as I have described and see how very much faster this is than gripping it by the handle. A Javanese keris gripped by the handle really feels very clumsy and "dead".