Comments?

John · 6th February 2005, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

The attribute in the right hand is the club, which points to Raden Bima.

Good to see an "old boy" speak as always...

Am I right to assume this Raden Bima is the second of the Pandawa brothers of the Mahabarata epic (Yudhistira, Bima, Arjuna, Nakula and Sahadewa)? Don't quite recall the club attribute.

Naga Sasra · 6th February 2005, 12:57 PM

John, you are absolutely correct, Bima is the second of the Pandawa brothers. He is shown as an armourer in the relief of Candi Sukuh among other places.
He has been iconized in many different ways with attribute in his right hand (sword or club) or no attribute at all, he has also been shown with or with out a hair bun and with or without long thump nails, sitting, squatting or standing.

For more information I suggest “Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen” by Martin Kerner. It is written mostly in German but with some English translations.

Oh John, thanks for the “old boy” attribution

nechesh · 6th February 2005, 04:00 PM

Sorry guys, you are losing me here.

I don't understand the connection being made between this raksasa ukiran and Raden Bima. Why would one of the Pandawa brothers be depicted as a demon. I also do not see the club Naga Sasra is talking about depicted in the right hand of this hilt. Isn't the figure just holding his knees. My understanding of the raksasa is that they are a class of demons, devouring giants, not just one identifiable deity. Am i wrong?

Rick · 6th February 2005, 06:03 PM

Joining Nechesh in his confusion .

This would be Bima ?

Alam Shah · 6th February 2005, 06:25 PM

Joining the confusion...Have a look at Cirebon hilts. This is raksasa kerdil.

Another reference link.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...north_java.htm

John · 7th February 2005, 02:03 AM

Rick, is your example an affirmative Bima?

Erik and Alam Shah, thanks for puttings things on the table. Figurines as such are fascinating but references have been vague it seems. So as it is; Bima or Raksasa Kerdil? or what?

Alam Shah · 7th February 2005, 02:10 AM

Mick's a Cirebon raksasa kerdil while Rick's example is a Bima.
I think, Rick is giving the pics for comparison. The difference is quite obvious.

Below, link to a drawing of a Bima hilt.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...kiran_bali.htm

6th February 2005, 06:03 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Joining Nechesh in his confusion . This would be Bima ? Attached Images

6th February 2005, 06:25 PM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Reference link. Joining the confusion...Have a look at Cirebon hilts. This is raksasa kerdil. Another reference link. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...north_java.htm

7th February 2005, 02:10 AM	#7
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Comparison Mick's a Cirebon raksasa kerdil while Rick's example is a Bima. I think, Rick is giving the pics for comparison. The difference is quite obvious. Below, link to a drawing of a Bima hilt. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...kiran_bali.htm Last edited by Alam Shah; 7th February 2005 at 02:44 AM. Reason: added link info

6th February 2005, 12:57 PM	#2
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	John, you are absolutely correct, Bima is the second of the Pandawa brothers. He is shown as an armourer in the relief of Candi Sukuh among other places. He has been iconized in many different ways with attribute in his right hand (sword or club) or no attribute at all, he has also been shown with or with out a hair bun and with or without long thump nails, sitting, squatting or standing. For more information I suggest “Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen” by Martin Kerner. It is written mostly in German but with some English translations. Oh John, thanks for the “old boy” attribution

6th February 2005, 04:00 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry guys, you are losing me here. I don't understand the connection being made between this raksasa ukiran and Raden Bima. Why would one of the Pandawa brothers be depicted as a demon. I also do not see the club Naga Sasra is talking about depicted in the right hand of this hilt. Isn't the figure just holding his knees. My understanding of the raksasa is that they are a class of demons, devouring giants, not just one identifiable deity. Am i wrong?

7th February 2005, 02:03 AM	#6
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Rick, is your example an affirmative Bima? Erik and Alam Shah, thanks for puttings things on the table. Figurines as such are fascinating but references have been vague it seems. So as it is; Bima or Raksasa Kerdil? or what?