steel and iron weaponry of the american natives.........

Tim Simmons · 11th September 2006, 08:55 PM

This is also from the Americas museum in Madrid. I think this is most interesting as it has the same method of attachment to a halft as the axe I post earlier from Wisconsin except this one is bronze. It is 11cm long and reminds me of axes from South Africa. If one is to work on that well trodden path of like forms means it came from somewhere else. Then Zulu sailors went the long way round, or round the cape of good hope and then cape horn and settled in the Andes

. I prefer to think that some objects are universal and the design comes to a mature form that does not alter where ever one comes from.

David · 11th September 2006, 11:21 PM

BTW, here's a link to a description of the potlatch. It doesn't involve the destuction of ones possessions, but the giving away of them. Hard to say when the tradition began, but it was banned by both the Canadian and U.S. governments in the late 19th century. That law held in Canada until 1951.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch

Jeff D · 12th September 2006, 05:37 AM

Apparently the earliest travellers to the northern west coast found both copper and iron in use. Copper most likely was mined and Iron and steel was probably salvaged from ship wrecks and drifting debris. (Coe, Swords and Hilt Weapons Pg.218). I have accumulated a number of photo's over the years, unfortunately I can't remember all their origins. 1) copper blade, 2) Iron blade 3) Russian bayonet, 4) Sheffield trade blade, 5) double blade.

Jeff

Flavio · 12th September 2006, 08:52 AM

The last one, double blade, is simply beautiful!!!!

ausjulius · 13th September 2006, 07:28 AM

realy very attractive knives,
the blade shapes and handle decoration had a very natural look , i find these far mor eattractive than many other ethnic weaponry,, they have somehow a natural , but brutal look

very nice daggers,

its interesting that they developed their own style different form the blades they obtained,
would you thhink they had been making them for along time , otherwise theyed be much mor einfluenced by the trade blades,

it is also interesting that these seem made fistly for fighting not for hunting or general use,

Tim Simmons · 13th September 2006, 05:52 PM

I am of the opinion that certain native nations in the Americas clearly had considerable knowledge and practice with metals. Some of the knives may have been influenced by more general flint and bone daggers. The arrival of iron and steel just adding to the material these artists had to explore. I recently saw a documentary about a type of flint blade found all over the Americas that was only supposed to be in Europe and people were getting pretty hot under the collar about it. Some interesting hypothesis were battled over but no one would consider universality of function and maturity of design.

fearn · 14th September 2006, 04:57 AM

Hi All,

Actually, I think there's one interesting fact that's left out of here:

there were two groups of native Americans who did have iron, although they seldom used it for weapons, other than perhaps harpoon, spear, and arrow tips.

Both the Inuit and the Dorset people who preceeded them used iron that they broke off three large meteorites that were found at Cape York. They cold-hammered the iron pieces into useable shapes. In effect, there was an "Arctic iron age" using stone-age technology.

About a month ago, I finished reading McGhee's Ancient Peoples of the Arctic which is a fun book if you like archeology.

Figured I should throw that in there. A bigger puzzle is why no one in the Andes learned how to use iron, given that it's relatively common in the cordillera.

F

11th September 2006, 08:55 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	This is also from the Americas museum in Madrid. I think this is most interesting as it has the same method of attachment to a halft as the axe I post earlier from Wisconsin except this one is bronze. It is 11cm long and reminds me of axes from South Africa. If one is to work on that well trodden path of like forms means it came from somewhere else. Then Zulu sailors went the long way round, or round the cape of good hope and then cape horn and settled in the Andes . I prefer to think that some objects are universal and the design comes to a mature form that does not alter where ever one comes from. Attached Images

12th September 2006, 05:37 AM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Apparently the earliest travellers to the northern west coast found both copper and iron in use. Copper most likely was mined and Iron and steel was probably salvaged from ship wrecks and drifting debris. (Coe, Swords and Hilt Weapons Pg.218). I have accumulated a number of photo's over the years, unfortunately I can't remember all their origins. 1) copper blade, 2) Iron blade 3) Russian bayonet, 4) Sheffield trade blade, 5) double blade. Jeff Attached Images

11th September 2006, 11:21 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	BTW, here's a link to a description of the potlatch. It doesn't involve the destuction of ones possessions, but the giving away of them. Hard to say when the tradition began, but it was banned by both the Canadian and U.S. governments in the late 19th century. That law held in Canada until 1951. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch

12th September 2006, 08:52 AM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	The last one, double blade, is simply beautiful!!!!

13th September 2006, 07:28 AM	#5
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 440	realy very attractive knives, the blade shapes and handle decoration had a very natural look , i find these far mor eattractive than many other ethnic weaponry,, they have somehow a natural , but brutal look very nice daggers, its interesting that they developed their own style different form the blades they obtained, would you thhink they had been making them for along time , otherwise theyed be much mor einfluenced by the trade blades, it is also interesting that these seem made fistly for fighting not for hunting or general use,

13th September 2006, 05:52 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	I am of the opinion that certain native nations in the Americas clearly had considerable knowledge and practice with metals. Some of the knives may have been influenced by more general flint and bone daggers. The arrival of iron and steel just adding to the material these artists had to explore. I recently saw a documentary about a type of flint blade found all over the Americas that was only supposed to be in Europe and people were getting pretty hot under the collar about it. Some interesting hypothesis were battled over but no one would consider universality of function and maturity of design.

14th September 2006, 04:57 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, Actually, I think there's one interesting fact that's left out of here: there were two groups of native Americans who did have iron, although they seldom used it for weapons, other than perhaps harpoon, spear, and arrow tips. Both the Inuit and the Dorset people who preceeded them used iron that they broke off three large meteorites that were found at Cape York. They cold-hammered the iron pieces into useable shapes. In effect, there was an "Arctic iron age" using stone-age technology. About a month ago, I finished reading McGhee's Ancient Peoples of the Arctic which is a fun book if you like archeology. Figured I should throw that in there. A bigger puzzle is why no one in the Andes learned how to use iron, given that it's relatively common in the cordillera. F