steel and iron weaponry of the american natives.........

Andrew · 11th September 2006, 02:19 AM

I am unaware of any Native American steel or iron weapons predating the arrival of Europeans (16th century). By that time, the majority of Native American technology was stone-age, with the noteable exception of Tlingit copper-working in the Pacific Northwest.

A nice book is Colin F. Taylor's, Native American Weapons, Salamander Books, Ltd., United Kingdom (2001) ISBN 0-8061-3346-5.

ausjulius · 11th September 2006, 05:22 AM

hi "Tlingit" might be it...... anyway i remember the swords were quitly complicated... at the base of the blade where the fullers began the formed a face or pattern , looking quite alot like the pacific islanders tattoos,,, looked like it was forged into the blade....... andway i recall that the writer specualted the origins of the native metal working were russian , or were brought from some parts of siberia or russias far east colonies... which makes sence as the natives in the east all had the ability to work steel,, and were many times froced to work for the russians in the americas

ausjulius · 11th September 2006, 07:04 AM

http://www.alaskanativeartists.com/t...body_armor.htm

seems somebody is making reproductions of theTlingit body armor,.....

Potlatch was the term i remember now....... but none of the Tlingit look as the knives i saw pictures....
if i recall correctly the daggers were more as a kindjal,, and had a secound blade on the pommel, as on some african daggers and swords..
they also had multi fullered blades........

anyone seen anything like this????????? .....

Andrew · 11th September 2006, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

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anyone seen anything like this????????? .....

Yes. Tlingit.

If possible, check out the book I mentioned above.

ausjulius · 11th September 2006, 02:29 PM

thanks i shall.. but there isnt mant book shops around here... ill keep an eye out.....

ausjulius · 11th September 2006, 02:34 PM

yup , thats it , i recognise the knif eon the cover

........
n ow makes me wounder where they got the skills to make these with such complicated blades........

tom hyle · 11th September 2006, 05:03 PM

Tlinglits were working copper on their own, as were some people around the Great Lakes area, around the Carribean, and in the Andes. I have heard that in northern N America (current USA and Canada) the mining was primarily or solely in the Great Lakes Region. Tlinglit (etc.; the technology is not unique, AFAIK, to one tribe of the region) daggers tend to be midribbed, and fairly sophisticated in their detailing and finishing, and I've certainly seen iron/steel ones, and had presumed them to be 18th/19th C. Of course, as time and research go on it grows increasingly hard to deny pre-Columbus (etc.) contacts between peoples previously considered as isolated/seperated. "Vikings" in N America are cetainly no longer considered a romantic fiction, and much earlier European incursions are probably well indicated, for instance.
The Tlinglit body armour is remarkably similar to a medieval European armour known as a coat of plates. I'm not suggesting a direct relation; Tlinglits (etc.) are quite far from Europe; near (as pointed out) to Siberia, and these are far from the only two armours to fit in this category of resemblance; form following function, perhaps. Just an interesting comparison, is all.

mross · 11th September 2006, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I am unaware of any Native American steel or iron weapons predating the arrival of Europeans (16th century). By that time, the majority of Native American technology was stone-age, with the noteable exception of Tlingit copper-working in the Pacific Northwest.

A nice book is Colin F. Taylor's, Native American Weapons, Salamander Books, Ltd., United Kingdom (2001) ISBN 0-8061-3346-5.

I agree with Andrew. Most of what people think of Native American weapons, in particuliar the tomahawk where in fact trade items. Ditto for their knives. Most auctions that deal with Native American artifacts never mention steel weapons. A case inpoint that was in a thread here recently was a knife and sheath from ebay, the knife was not even mentioned. What was for sale was the beadwork decorated sheath. My main intrests are in ancient metallurgy, so it would be nice if the US had a history of it, but so far I have not found any.

Battara · 11th September 2006, 06:25 PM

Many steel bladed NW Coast knives were made of the traded Russian steel or even made of work out files. Again, as mentioned earlier, these were of the 19th century period. You can also look at older Sotheby's and Butterfield's auctions for these examples.

David · 11th September 2006, 07:09 PM

Perhaps this is more of what you are looking for. It is one of two daggers made of meteoric ore and is said to go back 10 generations. I believe it is currently in the hands of Harold Jacobs, a Tlingit cultural specialist whose family had been the caretakers of this piece for some time. It was recently returned to his tribe by a museum.The dagger, called Keet Gwalaa (Killer whale dagger) is 27" in length. The copper binding the hilt is on very tight. It appears to be made in two pieces joined at the hilt.

11th September 2006, 07:09 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Perhaps this is more of what you are looking for. It is one of two daggers made of meteoric ore and is said to go back 10 generations. I believe it is currently in the hands of Harold Jacobs, a Tlingit cultural specialist whose family had been the caretakers of this piece for some time. It was recently returned to his tribe by a museum.The dagger, called Keet Gwalaa (Killer whale dagger) is 27" in length. The copper binding the hilt is on very tight. It appears to be made in two pieces joined at the hilt. Attached Images

11th September 2006, 02:19 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I am unaware of any Native American steel or iron weapons predating the arrival of Europeans (16th century). By that time, the majority of Native American technology was stone-age, with the noteable exception of Tlingit copper-working in the Pacific Northwest. A nice book is Colin F. Taylor's, Native American Weapons, Salamander Books, Ltd., United Kingdom (2001) ISBN 0-8061-3346-5.

11th September 2006, 05:22 AM	#2
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 475	hi "Tlingit" might be it...... anyway i remember the swords were quitly complicated... at the base of the blade where the fullers began the formed a face or pattern , looking quite alot like the pacific islanders tattoos,,, looked like it was forged into the blade....... andway i recall that the writer specualted the origins of the native metal working were russian , or were brought from some parts of siberia or russias far east colonies... which makes sence as the natives in the east all had the ability to work steel,, and were many times froced to work for the russians in the americas

11th September 2006, 07:04 AM	#3
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 475	http://www.alaskanativeartists.com/t...body_armor.htm seems somebody is making reproductions of theTlingit body armor,..... Potlatch was the term i remember now....... but none of the Tlingit look as the knives i saw pictures.... if i recall correctly the daggers were more as a kindjal,, and had a secound blade on the pommel, as on some african daggers and swords.. they also had multi fullered blades........ anyone seen anything like this????????? .....

11th September 2006, 02:29 PM	#5
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 475	thanks i shall.. but there isnt mant book shops around here... ill keep an eye out.....

11th September 2006, 02:34 PM	#6
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 475	yup , thats it , i recognise the knif eon the cover ........ n ow makes me wounder where they got the skills to make these with such complicated blades........

11th September 2006, 05:03 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Tlinglits were working copper on their own, as were some people around the Great Lakes area, around the Carribean, and in the Andes. I have heard that in northern N America (current USA and Canada) the mining was primarily or solely in the Great Lakes Region. Tlinglit (etc.; the technology is not unique, AFAIK, to one tribe of the region) daggers tend to be midribbed, and fairly sophisticated in their detailing and finishing, and I've certainly seen iron/steel ones, and had presumed them to be 18th/19th C. Of course, as time and research go on it grows increasingly hard to deny pre-Columbus (etc.) contacts between peoples previously considered as isolated/seperated. "Vikings" in N America are cetainly no longer considered a romantic fiction, and much earlier European incursions are probably well indicated, for instance. The Tlinglit body armour is remarkably similar to a medieval European armour known as a coat of plates. I'm not suggesting a direct relation; Tlinglits (etc.) are quite far from Europe; near (as pointed out) to Siberia, and these are far from the only two armours to fit in this category of resemblance; form following function, perhaps. Just an interesting comparison, is all.

11th September 2006, 06:25 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,342	Many steel bladed NW Coast knives were made of the traded Russian steel or even made of work out files. Again, as mentioned earlier, these were of the 19th century period. You can also look at older Sotheby's and Butterfield's auctions for these examples.