Unusual Keris Dress from where?

David · 24th August 2006, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

David, It does make quite a point in discounting the "tourist" thing, however, we can use the same rationale and say, well if it was not made for the tourist trade should we not have seen more of them as well. It is indeed abstract in nature and certainly nicely carved, could it have been the one piece the dealer had under the counter to show the discriminating tourist, the one tourist that didn't want something typically tourist stuff?

Quite possiblly, but i still don't see exactly why we are assuming it is tourist dress to begin with. Is it merely because it is unusual and ornate?
If i am not mistaken, the length of the gandar is more determined by traditional standards of proportion than it is by the length of the blade. The keris when sheathed and worn must look correctly proportioned on the person. Is this not correct?

Henk · 24th August 2006, 08:52 AM

Gentlemen. I didn't say that this keris was tourist stuff. In literature the keris brought back by the dutch soldiers are called the very first tourstlike keris.

A very good blade in a scabbard with the lying lion and a ukiran in the shape of a woman or male figure. That are the ones we see most. I have seen here in Holland, and those are more rarely to find other dresses.

Naga Sasra, I ceretainly like this one. It is well executed with a very good blade. But the carving work does remind me to the maduran pieces our soldiers brought home. But East Java or Cirebon are certainly possible too. I remember reading in a dutch book, unfortunately I cann't remember wich one, these keris were offered to the dutch soldiers. These keris were fitted into these dresses because the young soldiers, aged 18 to 20 years liked these dresses most. The first tourist keris was developed.

VVV · 24th August 2006, 09:35 AM

Interesting thread.
I also always thought that Keris dressed like that were early Maduran tourist Keris. Even if the hilt has influence of f.i. Cirebon/Tegal Ganesha hilts or East Javanese floral hilts I find the carvings on the sheath more resembling Madura?
The reference Henk didn't remember could be D van Duuren, The Kris - An earthly approach to a cosmic symbol, page 72 (at least in the English version).

Michael

Henk · 24th August 2006, 01:43 PM

Michael,

It was Van Duuren indeed who is writing on page 78 about the keris brought back by the dutch soldiers. This keris could be considered as an early kind of touristkeris.
Your thought wasn't so bad at all.

On page 74 (in the dutch copy) he shows a maduran keris with an ukiran in the pulasir style with helmet and epaulettes, symbols of the dutch army and the winged horse on the belly of the ukiran. On the wrangka watermotives representing Madura as a seperate and from Java independent island. Madura was very loyal to the Dutch. Many soldiers for the KNIL came from Madura. For their services Maduran royals became officially the title Sultan. Princes who fought bravely became the rank of colonel. Sultans and colonels were decorated with dutch military orders. The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

David · 24th August 2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Michael,The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

Yes, and a lovely example of the Dutch soldier's keris that you show us Henk.

But this is part of my argument for this NOT being such a keris. None of this type of representation (figurative), either dutch or Indonesian, appear in Naga Sasra's dress. If we look at the "touristy" dress that formed in Bali we also see very figurative designs such as a greatt big Kala face. Fancy and figurative seems to be what the European mindset wanted. It is also true, i think, that East jawa and Madura presented quite alot of nice wood carving in their traditional keris dress, so i am not inclined to immediately believe that this is a design created for export. It certainly could have been, i just don't see anything that implies it.
BTW, i don't think anyone was pointing your way particularly for starting the idea that this might be a tourist piece. I believe Naga Sasra began his thread with the thought.

VVV · 24th August 2006, 04:36 PM

David,

Could you please either show us a picture of an East Javanese carved sheath or give a page referral in any of the Keris books?
I only follow you on the Maduran sheaths?

Michael

David · 24th August 2006, 07:53 PM

Sorry for the confusion Michael, i wasn't referring to sheaths necessarily when i mentioned nicely carved dress. There are some wonderfully carved East Javanese hilts though. You are probably right, richly carved sheaths are more the style of Madura than East Jawa. I think what is probably swaying me towards an East Jawa origin for this keris is that the hilt seems so, though i think this form also shows up in Madura. Of course that is probably a bad indication to follow since Naga Sasra has informed us that the keris fits badly and probably isn't original to the sheath. Still an interesting mystery.

Henk · 25th August 2006, 09:26 AM

David,

Van Duuren is mentioning two things. The military ukiran the maduran developed after being honoured for their help to the dutch army. I add a picture of such a ukiran below. That is such a ukiran referring to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, and a lovely example of the Dutch soldier's keris that you show us Henk.

But this is part of my argument for this NOT being such a keris. None of this type of representation (figurative), either dutch or Indonesian, appear in Naga Sasra's dress. If we look at the "touristy" dress that formed in Bali we also see very figurative designs such as a greatt big Kala face. Fancy and figurative seems to be what the European mindset wanted. It is also true, i think, that East jawa and Madura presented quite alot of nice wood carving in their traditional keris dress, so i am not inclined to immediately believe that this is a design created for export. It certainly could have been, i just don't see anything that implies it.
BTW, i don't think anyone was pointing your way particularly for starting the idea that this might be a tourist piece. I believe Naga Sasra began his thread with the thought.

The soldiers keris I showed you and the soldiers keris with the lying lion on the wrangka (such examples appear from time to time on ebay) are the keris brought back to Holland by the dutch soldiers as a souvenir and what Van Duuren called the first early tourist keris.
The keris Naga Sasra shows us has such an equal appearance as those keris. As i wrote before, here in Holland those keris come up from time to time. Mostly the usual "standard" soldiers keris with lying lion on the wrangka and a male or female ukiran, but sometimes in a complete different dress but still recognizable as a soldiers keris.

I prefer to speak about "soldiers keris" and not about "tourist keris". For me a tourist keris is a complete different category.

Marcokeris · 25th August 2006, 11:06 AM

I agree with Henk.
I add another "soldier" ukiran's picture

24th August 2006, 08:52 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Gentlemen. I didn't say that this keris was tourist stuff. In literature the keris brought back by the dutch soldiers are called the very first tourstlike keris. A very good blade in a scabbard with the lying lion and a ukiran in the shape of a woman or male figure. That are the ones we see most. I have seen here in Holland, and those are more rarely to find other dresses. Naga Sasra, I ceretainly like this one. It is well executed with a very good blade. But the carving work does remind me to the maduran pieces our soldiers brought home. But East Java or Cirebon are certainly possible too. I remember reading in a dutch book, unfortunately I cann't remember wich one, these keris were offered to the dutch soldiers. These keris were fitted into these dresses because the young soldiers, aged 18 to 20 years liked these dresses most. The first tourist keris was developed. Attached Images

25th August 2006, 11:06 AM	#9
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I agree with Henk. I add another "soldier" ukiran's picture Attached Images

24th August 2006, 09:35 AM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting thread. I also always thought that Keris dressed like that were early Maduran tourist Keris. Even if the hilt has influence of f.i. Cirebon/Tegal Ganesha hilts or East Javanese floral hilts I find the carvings on the sheath more resembling Madura? The reference Henk didn't remember could be D van Duuren, The Kris - An earthly approach to a cosmic symbol, page 72 (at least in the English version). Michael

24th August 2006, 01:43 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Michael, It was Van Duuren indeed who is writing on page 78 about the keris brought back by the dutch soldiers. This keris could be considered as an early kind of touristkeris. Your thought wasn't so bad at all. On page 74 (in the dutch copy) he shows a maduran keris with an ukiran in the pulasir style with helmet and epaulettes, symbols of the dutch army and the winged horse on the belly of the ukiran. On the wrangka watermotives representing Madura as a seperate and from Java independent island. Madura was very loyal to the Dutch. Many soldiers for the KNIL came from Madura. For their services Maduran royals became officially the title Sultan. Princes who fought bravely became the rank of colonel. Sultans and colonels were decorated with dutch military orders. The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

24th August 2006, 04:36 PM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	David, Could you please either show us a picture of an East Javanese carved sheath or give a page referral in any of the Keris books? I only follow you on the Maduran sheaths? Michael

24th August 2006, 07:53 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Sorry for the confusion Michael, i wasn't referring to sheaths necessarily when i mentioned nicely carved dress. There are some wonderfully carved East Javanese hilts though. You are probably right, richly carved sheaths are more the style of Madura than East Jawa. I think what is probably swaying me towards an East Jawa origin for this keris is that the hilt seems so, though i think this form also shows up in Madura. Of course that is probably a bad indication to follow since Naga Sasra has informed us that the keris fits badly and probably isn't original to the sheath. Still an interesting mystery.