Kindjal

Rivkin · 12th August 2006, 11:11 PM

I would say circassians and adighe is the same thing; concerning north vs. south, it is like "whose dance is lezginka" - very hard to understand whether choh was earlier than cherkeska or vice versa, just like it is very hard to understand whose version of lezginka was the first one.

Concerning kindjal as being of a purely caucasian origin, I recently started to doubt it. While we clearly see similar daggers in the late Iron ages, I have failed to find anything like a typical kindjal among 10th-14th century weapons of whether north or southern caucasus. It is damn strange that to my knowledge all of the classical caucasian kindjals are of a later period.

For the references for 10-14th centuries weapons I would refer to:

David Nicolle "arms and armour of the crusading era", volume II for Georgia/Armenia and works of V.N. Kaminsky for northern Caucasus. For traditional northern caucasian dress of the period I would refer to the famous article in the journal of metropolitan museum, I think it is called "analysis of a 9th century costume from northern caucasus". No sign of kindjals or cherkeska there ( what whould they use gazyris for in 9th century ?). Looks like a chalat.

And finally - did anyone see the book "Waffen der Bronzezeit aus Ost-Georgien." by Picchelauri ? I heard it is a fantastic accound of arms and armour of earlier Colchi and late Kura-Arax and kurgan cultures.

The Double D · 13th August 2006, 07:34 AM

So to recap what you gentlemen have said.

The kindjal is a short sword or dagger. The Short Sword being the original form.

It is assumed to have originated in the Caucasus. But there may be some evidence that questions that.

The blade is broad symmetrical and pointed and will have fullers.

The hilt or handle is distinct in having the shape of a minaret and will not be wider that the blade. There will be to raised rivets heads on one side of the handle.

The sheath will have a loop for belt, metal throat and pointed tip.

How's that?

From viewing the linked websites and looking at EBay, it appears to me the the kindjal has evolved from an ethnographic weapon to an ethnographic weapon that is an artwork.

Is there such a thing as a functional or working kindjal versus a kindjal that is just art? If there is such a thing, how do you distingush a working kindjal from an artwork.

ausjulius · 13th August 2006, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

So to recap what you gentlemen have said.

The kindjal is a short sword or dagger. The Short Sword being the original form.

It is assumed to have originated in the Caucasus. But there may be some evidence that questions that.

The blade is broad symmetrical and pointed and will have fullers.

The hilt or handle is distinct in having the shape of a minaret and will not be wider that the blade. There will be to raised rivets heads on one side of the handle.

The sheath will have a loop for belt, metal throat and pointed tip.

How's that?

From viewing the linked websites and looking at EBay, it appears to me the the kindjal has evolved from an ethnographic weapon to an ethnographic weapon that is an artwork.

Is there such a thing as a functional or working kindjal versus a kindjal that is just art? If there is such a thing, how do you distingush a working kindjal from an artwork.

the dress kindjals have small handles , for about 3 fingers,, and a long pointed blade,, they are for dress and as use as daggers, ive never seen one of these as a "working" kindjal,, theyer always decorated,, as thats what they were...
the working kindjals will normaly have a proper sized handel , and the fittings would be only plane metal , and the blade long enougth and broad enougth to be used for hacking aswell as stabbing,, normaly a one peice buffalo horn or wood handle will be used, and the sheath will be leather couvered wood,,
the blades on the useing kindjals normaly are about 50 cms or bigger,

Rivkin · 13th August 2006, 04:24 PM

"kindjal-tricks" are surprisingly essentially the same among south and north caucasians. I would guess there are a few "weird" styles that are different (like blind fight in the south), but the basic styles are the same.
You are completely right that no one really looked into it; if its northern iran (i.e. turkish tribes of Azerbaijan), I would see a problem with distinguishing their influence from the influence of other turkoman, timurid etc tribes. Arab influence was strong in Georgia in 7th-9th centuries, but slowly died out since. The problem essentially that besides territories that georgraphically surround Caucasus (Lazika, Azerbaijan, Balkans) no one has this weapon.

ausjulius · 13th August 2006, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

"kindjal-tricks" are surprisingly essentially the same among south and north caucasians. I would guess there are a few "weird" styles that are different (like blind fight in the south), but the basic styles are the same.
You are completely right that no one really looked into it; if its northern iran (i.e. turkish tribes of Azerbaijan), I would see a problem with distinguishing their influence from the influence of other turkoman, timurid etc tribes. Arab influence was strong in Georgia in 7th-9th centuries, but slowly died out since. The problem essentially that besides territories that georgraphically surround Caucasus (Lazika, Azerbaijan, Balkans) no one has this weapon.

you are correct with the kindjal and sword tricks being spread around the caucasus , however they and the now caucascian costume originate in the northwest caucasus , in the steppe areas,, and were spread by these folks who worked as mercinaries in the other states , aswell as being used as janissaries by the turks and such , the style seems to have spread quite rapidly , because the circassian culture spread these elerments to quite some areas , and the cossaks spead them also ,
the costumes and horse tricks are not mountian folks traditions,, but have been adopted from influence,

Rivkin · 13th August 2006, 07:26 PM

Well, I still think it is very hard to say where what originated. I never seen a definite data that would suggest circassians as inventors of dress/kindjal etc. I think all of these is somewhat of an obscure topic. Astvatsaturjan did offer no clue on these questions, I have high hopes that we will be able to get the answer from someone else - I have high hopes that Cholokashvili and other people from Janashia may go down to our level and say something on this issue.

ausjulius · 13th August 2006, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Well, I still think it is very hard to say where what originated. I never seen a definite data that would suggest circassians as inventors of dress/kindjal etc. I think all of these is somewhat of an obscure topic. Astvatsaturjan did offer no clue on these questions, I have high hopes that we will be able to get the answer from someone else - I have high hopes that Cholokashvili and other people from Janashia may go down to our level and say something on this issue.

indeed, still it is common knowlage amongst the folks here that the costume and shashka/kindjal and leather covered pistol brace is from the circassians, even in the 1800s the shashka was still not the most common sword in these parts,, and the shashka and kindjal forms derive from the same use of acrobatic riding techniques and aand weapon trichs of the north west caucasus , and these have spread down , not to say that the larger kindjals did not orignate in some other area,, ,
but the original costume of the other areas of the caucasus has changed in the last 250 years or so ,, and takes the aydge and circassian style,, originaly the mountian folks coustme was far more straterfied, and complex,,
the circassian costume is a simple military one ,

ausjulius · 13th August 2006, 09:52 AM

Hi , rivkin ,
the kindjal and the shashka are both modern weaponry,
they have not exisited long , and originaly evolved at the same time of the intorduction of firearms,,
the shashka is only 300 years old at the most.. and the kindjal not more,,
in dagestan before the introduction of the palash and shamshir type of swords the dagestan folds used a short one handed sword,, 10th 11th ceutuaries and such , the north caucascians living more on the open steppe always had some nomad type swords, such as the chechens,, and the circassians, sabers of various forms ,, depending on who was invading at the time ,
i think eairler in history they used the short one handed swords as the dagestani groups,,

the shashka evouled in the area around the aydge as they prefered to be very acrobatic with the swords and to perform many tricks to display there horse riding skills,, so the basicly chopped the guards off the swords,, ,, the handle form comes ot for the sabers of the time , but form a kard knife,,
at this time the cossaks were still using a tatar style sword,, suted for fighting against armoued opponents,,, ,, although mostly the western cossaks had discarded amour by this time , there costumes were still more mongolian than caucascian,, but as military contact increased with the caucascians they assumed the circassian costume and weaponry,, you see older pictures of the cossaks and they would appear to be men dressed and armed almost as mongols,, at this time there main opponent was either monols , tatars or the nogai/kipchak people who the were driving out form the southern steppe or assimilating into there hostes... i think that the same happened wiht the causasus,, also the cassaks were many times andits , so wat they could steal they didnt buy and if they won a battel and had a lot of new clothes and swords,, well then theyed use them ,
lezginka is the dance of the lezgins :P... no i thin with lezginka there is no way to know who it belongs to,, its been here for 1000snds of yers, like throat singing,, the mongols and turkic folks all do it but who invented it ... well its been around to long

with the kindjal,, ok , again it is a new weapon , and it is associated with the acrobatic riding or the north caucascians , aspecialy yhte flat form and the firm insertion into te belt , as oppose to a hanger of sorts,, the handle shape allows a high degree of dexterity when performing hand tricks with the weapon , and it can be spun through the fingers and twirled and suc , much more than could be done with a card or a european dagger or another form of short sword,, ...
the later kindjals that the cossaks encountered dasicly had evoulved as trick items and orniments havinf a handle that could fit between the fingers and be twirled and skipped on the fingers and such , aswel as being comfortable when trick riding,, , it could also be used to stabb wiiht with a good leathel effect if needed , ..
i thin the eairlier kindjals came form northen iran,,
just my opinion , either that or the north of the caucasus,,, if they cam form the north of the caucasus then they were very unpopular for a very ong time,, one idea is they came from some sort of leg sword that was used by the sythians and alans and mongola and such ushaly stuck in the arrow quiver or tied on the leg,, mostly for stabbing,,
the iran idea it it was form the roman swords :P or later fomrs like it form the arabs,, .. neither has a great deal of proof behind it,, mainly due to the fact that nobody have ever looked in great detial into it............

DaveA · 18th January 2015, 05:19 PM

Here is a previous thread with some wonderful pictures illustrating the kinjal and shashka.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=1061#poststop

ariel · 19th January 2015, 01:28 AM

Mech is a slavic word for a straight double-edged sword.
There is an equivalent to the turkish "mech" ,i.e. narrow-bladed, edge-less and very long blade suitable only for stabbing weapon, i.e. Eastern European sword called Konchar ( various writing). Amusingly, this word came from turkic languages ( handzhar is a close relative).

Thus, both the Ottomans and the Slavs used the same weapon, but each called it in the opposite language: Turks took the Slavc term, and the Slavs Turkish.
Fair swap :-)

18th January 2015, 05:19 PM	#9
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	Photo tribute to Caucasus Here is a previous thread with some wonderful pictures illustrating the kinjal and shashka. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=1061#poststop

12th August 2006, 11:11 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I would say circassians and adighe is the same thing; concerning north vs. south, it is like "whose dance is lezginka" - very hard to understand whether choh was earlier than cherkeska or vice versa, just like it is very hard to understand whose version of lezginka was the first one. Concerning kindjal as being of a purely caucasian origin, I recently started to doubt it. While we clearly see similar daggers in the late Iron ages, I have failed to find anything like a typical kindjal among 10th-14th century weapons of whether north or southern caucasus. It is damn strange that to my knowledge all of the classical caucasian kindjals are of a later period. For the references for 10-14th centuries weapons I would refer to: David Nicolle "arms and armour of the crusading era", volume II for Georgia/Armenia and works of V.N. Kaminsky for northern Caucasus. For traditional northern caucasian dress of the period I would refer to the famous article in the journal of metropolitan museum, I think it is called "analysis of a 9th century costume from northern caucasus". No sign of kindjals or cherkeska there ( what whould they use gazyris for in 9th century ?). Looks like a chalat. And finally - did anyone see the book "Waffen der Bronzezeit aus Ost-Georgien." by Picchelauri ? I heard it is a fantastic accound of arms and armour of earlier Colchi and late Kura-Arax and kurgan cultures.

13th August 2006, 07:34 AM	#2
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	So to recap what you gentlemen have said. The kindjal is a short sword or dagger. The Short Sword being the original form. It is assumed to have originated in the Caucasus. But there may be some evidence that questions that. The blade is broad symmetrical and pointed and will have fullers. The hilt or handle is distinct in having the shape of a minaret and will not be wider that the blade. There will be to raised rivets heads on one side of the handle. The sheath will have a loop for belt, metal throat and pointed tip. How's that? From viewing the linked websites and looking at EBay, it appears to me the the kindjal has evolved from an ethnographic weapon to an ethnographic weapon that is an artwork. Is there such a thing as a functional or working kindjal versus a kindjal that is just art? If there is such a thing, how do you distingush a working kindjal from an artwork.

13th August 2006, 04:24 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	"kindjal-tricks" are surprisingly essentially the same among south and north caucasians. I would guess there are a few "weird" styles that are different (like blind fight in the south), but the basic styles are the same. You are completely right that no one really looked into it; if its northern iran (i.e. turkish tribes of Azerbaijan), I would see a problem with distinguishing their influence from the influence of other turkoman, timurid etc tribes. Arab influence was strong in Georgia in 7th-9th centuries, but slowly died out since. The problem essentially that besides territories that georgraphically surround Caucasus (Lazika, Azerbaijan, Balkans) no one has this weapon.

13th August 2006, 07:26 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, I still think it is very hard to say where what originated. I never seen a definite data that would suggest circassians as inventors of dress/kindjal etc. I think all of these is somewhat of an obscure topic. Astvatsaturjan did offer no clue on these questions, I have high hopes that we will be able to get the answer from someone else - I have high hopes that Cholokashvili and other people from Janashia may go down to our level and say something on this issue.

13th August 2006, 09:52 AM	#8
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 438	Hi , rivkin , the kindjal and the shashka are both modern weaponry, they have not exisited long , and originaly evolved at the same time of the intorduction of firearms,, the shashka is only 300 years old at the most.. and the kindjal not more,, in dagestan before the introduction of the palash and shamshir type of swords the dagestan folds used a short one handed sword,, 10th 11th ceutuaries and such , the north caucascians living more on the open steppe always had some nomad type swords, such as the chechens,, and the circassians, sabers of various forms ,, depending on who was invading at the time , i think eairler in history they used the short one handed swords as the dagestani groups,, the shashka evouled in the area around the aydge as they prefered to be very acrobatic with the swords and to perform many tricks to display there horse riding skills,, so the basicly chopped the guards off the swords,, ,, the handle form comes ot for the sabers of the time , but form a kard knife,, at this time the cossaks were still using a tatar style sword,, suted for fighting against armoued opponents,,, ,, although mostly the western cossaks had discarded amour by this time , there costumes were still more mongolian than caucascian,, but as military contact increased with the caucascians they assumed the circassian costume and weaponry,, you see older pictures of the cossaks and they would appear to be men dressed and armed almost as mongols,, at this time there main opponent was either monols , tatars or the nogai/kipchak people who the were driving out form the southern steppe or assimilating into there hostes... i think that the same happened wiht the causasus,, also the cassaks were many times andits , so wat they could steal they didnt buy and if they won a battel and had a lot of new clothes and swords,, well then theyed use them , lezginka is the dance of the lezgins :P... no i thin with lezginka there is no way to know who it belongs to,, its been here for 1000snds of yers, like throat singing,, the mongols and turkic folks all do it but who invented it ... well its been around to long with the kindjal,, ok , again it is a new weapon , and it is associated with the acrobatic riding or the north caucascians , aspecialy yhte flat form and the firm insertion into te belt , as oppose to a hanger of sorts,, the handle shape allows a high degree of dexterity when performing hand tricks with the weapon , and it can be spun through the fingers and twirled and suc , much more than could be done with a card or a european dagger or another form of short sword,, ... the later kindjals that the cossaks encountered dasicly had evoulved as trick items and orniments havinf a handle that could fit between the fingers and be twirled and skipped on the fingers and such , aswel as being comfortable when trick riding,, , it could also be used to stabb wiiht with a good leathel effect if needed , .. i thin the eairlier kindjals came form northen iran,, just my opinion , either that or the north of the caucasus,,, if they cam form the north of the caucasus then they were very unpopular for a very ong time,, one idea is they came from some sort of leg sword that was used by the sythians and alans and mongola and such ushaly stuck in the arrow quiver or tied on the leg,, mostly for stabbing,, the iran idea it it was form the roman swords :P or later fomrs like it form the arabs,, .. neither has a great deal of proof behind it,, mainly due to the fact that nobody have ever looked in great detial into it............

19th January 2015, 01:28 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Mech is a slavic word for a straight double-edged sword. There is an equivalent to the turkish "mech" ,i.e. narrow-bladed, edge-less and very long blade suitable only for stabbing weapon, i.e. Eastern European sword called Konchar ( various writing). Amusingly, this word came from turkic languages ( handzhar is a close relative). Thus, both the Ottomans and the Slavs used the same weapon, but each called it in the opposite language: Turks took the Slavc term, and the Slavs Turkish. Fair swap :-)