Definitive Warfare

nechesh · 9th August 2006, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Nechesh,

You must be the local internet warrior, lol. It seems like whenever a new guy pops up, you start showing your internet muscle. Relax, since none of my posts were directed towards you. Actually, I don't really care if you collect bottlecaps or what not.

Sorry mate, i'm afraid when you post on an open forum your words (or lack there in) effect everyone. Couldn't care less who you were actually aiming at. I assure you, i am very relaxed and my advice to you really has nothing to do with muscle, just common sense. Nor does it have anything to do with you being the "new guy". I will be very interested in you words about Moro weapons and culture when you really have something to say beyonds vague hints and inuendo.

mross · 9th August 2006, 05:16 PM

Read this many times and debated on responding, guess which side won?

There are several parts to this so bear with me and I will try not to ramble.
The current state of collection affairs (them being owned by non Moros ) with regard to Moro swords is not uncommon. If you look at Japanese society very few modern Japanese could care less about the Japanese sword. There are collectors of Japanese heritage but it is mostly a rich mans game. (The primary reason I no longer collect them.) If you look at the majority of the swords they are in the hands of the non-Japanese. These non-ethnic collectors are preserving the art. A sad commentary is that many of these are old timers and are not being replaced so the future state of collecting Nihonto is in question. Japan is only interested in National Treasures being returned anything else they have no interest in. Many have had swords that they wanted to return to families only to be disappointed. Many Japanese collectors come to the USA to buy swords.
Another example is the keris. I collect these. Only recently have a bought one from the country of origin. Most of my collection came from the USA or the Netherlands. So again it seems that the preservation of these artifacts is fallen on non-ethics. I know we have people on the list from Indonesian, what is the current state of affairs with regard to the keris is your country? Are the people interested in the keris or is the interest only a select few?
Now at last here is my point. Moro swords are seeing the same phenomena as relics of other cultures. In Cato’s book he points out a lack of interest in swords by Moros. I suspect like everywhere else there is little interest in preserving swords except for culturally significant (re National Treasures) swords. (Cato mentions one such in his book). While there are many who man not like it, this is just the progression of things. If you use ebay as an example how many swords do you see coming from MoroLand? This sword that started this thread was in the UK. I have collected a few, all from the US. I have only seen one seller from the Philippines selling on ebay.

Now my next point is a matter of perception and price. It seems many of us thought the price was excessive and is driving the price of these swords out of reach of the average collector. I submit to you that it is not. Here are my reasons why, in this thread;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2851
Willie W stated, “Twisted cores such as the one shown were reserved for the panglimas, and not datus. Datus were dime a dozen, but to be a panglima is something else.” So lets go with this. This sword had a twisted core and was therefore most likely for a panglima. It seems accepted that the panglima was the right hand of a Sultan. If that is the case how many things destined for a man of this statue can be had for this price? While it was high, I like that fact that if I save and eat Ramen noodles for a year or so

I too could buy a sword that was a step away from a Sultan. I can think of nothing else I can do that with. This sword is an exceptional piece that went for price that many of use could save for. I think we should all take heart those exceptional pieces like this are still within reach, albeit a stretch. Ok that’s it what do you’ll think?

MABAGANI · 9th August 2006, 10:03 PM

I don't buy the statements, twist cores were reserved for panglima or panglima were the right hand of the sultan...
If "twist cores" were reserved for panglima would everyone be a panglima who owned an early kris?
If panglima were the right hands, why did Panglima Hassan of the infamous Bagsak battle/massacre lead 10,000 followers to fight the US, against the plea of the Sultan?

Ian · 9th August 2006, 10:21 PM

Mabagani:

I had similar thoughts.

Willie W. has asserted that this twisted core style was reserved for Panglima, and that they were highly positioned men in the Sultan's employ. Do we have some documentary evidence for either of these assertions? I would like to see corroboration of Willie's views.

Mabagani, you have visited Moroland and spoken with locals. Does your skepticism reflect data contrary to what Willie has stated?

Maybe there was the occasional "rogue" Panglima who was willing to go against the wishes of a weak Sultan, or maybe the Sultan was being duplicitous saying one thing to his enemy while at the same time having one of his Panglima do the opposite.

Ian.

MABAGANI · 10th August 2006, 02:55 AM

The assertion was more specific but without detail.
I'd ask, so which Sultanate? and era?
May not be the right forum if we're delving into politics.
I gave examples that contradict comments on the thread when some are accepting them as fact.

Willie W. · 10th August 2006, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Quote:

Nechesh,

You must be the local internet warrior, lol. It seems like whenever a new guy pops up, you start showing your internet muscle. Relax, since none of my posts were directed towards you. Actually, I don't really care if you collect bottlecaps or what not.

Willie W.,

There is only one kind of "muscle" on this forum - the moderators. It is clear that you are familiar with the forum, its members, and, of course, the posting rules. You therefore should realize that you are skating on thin ice at the moment (unless it is your attention to provoke a ban). Rule #1 (or close to it, anyway): never rise to the bait. So, keep your posts on-topic and away from personal comments.

Regards,

Mark
Vikingsword Staff

Mark,

I'm only responding the way I was provoked from the previous comments that was directed towards me. I've been checking out this forum from time to time for years, much as I check countless other forums. It's fun to read internet forums when I'm bored. Now, you're threatening to ban me for having a regular poster attack me? Am I just gonna have this fool talk to me that way the same way he talked to the other new members in the past as well? should I cower and bow down to him since he's a respected member? Sorry but you got the wrong guy. Don't threaten me; if you don't like me and you're feeling like god, do it. Let it be known tho, this post will be posted on the main forum.
have a good day

Andrew · 10th August 2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Mark,

I'm only responding the way I was provoked from the previous comments that was directed towards me. I've been checking out this forum from time to time for years, much as I check countless other forums. It's fun to read internet forums when I'm bored. Now, you're threatening to ban me for having a regular poster attack me? Am I just gonna have this fool talk to me that way the same way he talked to the other new members in the past as well? should I cower and bow down to him since he's a respected member? Sorry but you got the wrong guy. Don't threaten me; if you don't like me and you're feeling like god, do it. Let it be known tho, this post will be posted on the main forum.
have a good day

Lighten up, dude. The idea is to enjoy our time here. Calling someone a "fool" is not acceptable, and you know it.

Take the chip off your shoulder and relax.

nechesh · 10th August 2006, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie W.

Mark,

I'm only responding the way I was provoked from the previous comments that was directed towards me. I've been checking out this forum from time to time for years, much as I check countless other forums. It's fun to read internet forums when I'm bored. Now, you're threatening to ban me for having a regular poster attack me? Am I just gonna have this fool talk to me that way the same way he talked to the other new members in the past as well? should I cower and bow down to him since he's a respected member? Sorry but you got the wrong guy. Don't threaten me; if you don't like me and you're feeling like god, do it. Let it be known tho, this post will be posted on the main forum.
have a good day

Really Willie, what ever gave you the idea that i was a respected member around here. Depends on who you ask i suppose.

Mark is absolutely right about not rising to the bait, however it seems that it might be you who is baiting me and i am having a hard time just letting it stand. I have re-read my remarks to you and cannot find "attack" in them, yet you seem to have come on this forum on the attack and you have certainly attacked me personally by calling me a fool (a very underrated and misunderstood tarot card BTW

). I have merely been encouraging you to get off the attack and share some of your knowledge that you have only up til now alluded to having. We are all here because we are starved for real knowledge about these weapons, not because we are bored and have nothing better to do than stirr up trouble. Again, i look forward to your sharing of the great wealth of knowledge on the Moro, which unfortunately, up til now, you have been keeping to yourself.

MABAGANI · 10th August 2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

...or maybe the Sultan was being duplicitous saying one thing to his enemy while at the same time having one of his Panglima do the opposite.

Ian.

In this case, his war minister might have given the order, but the Sultan and Prime minister were more concerned with keeping the peace and survival of the population during this period. Panglima Hassan and his followers didn't want to pay their taxes so they isolated themselves on their mountain. The death toll at Bagsak was grossly under recorded, Moro families were known to fight together and die rather than surrender. I'd question if the facts were revealed would it have been considered a war crime.
Historically, in regards to duplicity, one could write the Bates Treaty was written by a general and approved by the president but meant to be broken, an instrument to forestall eventual war with the Moros until after the Philippine American War ended, which is exactly what happened, once it was declared over against the Katipunan, troops marched into the Moro territories in an unconstitutional undeclared war with Sultanates that were considered sovereign. There were whaler ships from the US trading in Moro waters in the 1700s and military expeditions asking permission to sail in the 1800s. Ever wonder why there are so many kris, barong, etc...floating around, but once they dry up of course the prices are going to go up, candidly speaking and without crypt.

Bill M · 10th August 2006, 12:10 PM

This is fascinating. Learning more about the Moro. I am re-reading Cato and he says that the Datus had considerable power, an ability to raise large armies quickly, -- sometimes more power than a panglima or even a sultan -- as many as 10,000 men.

Seems like the Moro did a lot of fighting among themselves and never really unified their tribes under one common leader. If they had been able to unify, they would have been a far more formidable force. I am impressed that they were still able to hold off the Spanish for almost 400 years.

There are far more erudite and knowledgeable people on this forum and I would like to know more. Pity there are such few books written about this marvelous people.

Can anyone recommend books other than Cato and "Swish of the Kriss?"

Ian · 10th August 2006, 12:36 PM

Mabagani:

History supports what you say about the Bates Treaty (no disrespect to Rick's ancestor). It was an American stalling tactic to avoid a further region of armed conflict until the fighting with Aguinaldo and the Katipunan in the north had been settled. The U.S. apparently intended all along to return to the "Moro problem" if necessary.

Another point of note were the gross errors in translation of this treaty from English into Tagalog. The English version speaks of U.S. sovereignty over the Sulu Archipelago, while Tausug version speaks of the U.S. offering protection only. This echoed earlier discrepancies in the Spanish treaties with the Sulu Sultanate. Not surprisingly, these treaties have created an ongoing difference of opinion that has persisted into present times with Moro disputes over the Philippines Government's authority in that region.

Some of the bloody fighting on Jolo, especially under the command of "Black Jack" Pershing, was called into question even in the early 1900s. The high actual death toll at Bagsak (not 300 as officially reported but several thousand, many women and children) was known to U.S. authorities and did eventually come out more publicly. A U.S. Congressional Inquiry was called for to investigate possible atrocities, and I believe it was approved by a House vote, but hearings were never held. General Pershing went on to other things.

This is obviously a touchy subject for many who are sympathetic with the Moro position. Let's not go any further down that path, though, lest we stray into a political minefield and get this thread locked!

As far as prices going higher, I'm afraid you're right -- it has already happened.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

In this case, his war minister might have given the order, but the Sultan and Prime minister were more concerned with keeping the peace and survival of the population during this period. Panglima Hassan and his followers didn't want to pay their taxes so they isolated themselves on their mountain. The death toll at Bagsak was grossly under recorded, Moro families were known to fight together and die rather than surrender. I'd question if the facts were revealed would it have been considered a war crime.
Historically, in regards to duplicity, one could write the Bates Treaty was written by a general and approved by the president but meant to be broken, an instrument to forestall eventual war with the Moros until after the Philippine American War ended, which is exactly what happened, once it was declared over against the Katipunan, troops marched into the Moro territories in an unconstitutional undeclared war with Sultanates that were considered sovereign. There were whaler ships from the US trading in Moro waters in the 1700s and military expeditions asking permission to sail in the 1800s. Ever wonder why there are so many kris, barong, etc...floating around, but once they dry up of course the prices are going to go up, candidly speaking and without crypt.

LabanTayo · 11th August 2006, 04:39 AM

one of my twist cores......

The Double D · 11th August 2006, 06:10 AM

Laban Tayo,

Awesome, that almost looks like a snake crawling across my screen...bee you tee full!!!

9th August 2006, 10:21 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Corroboration would be nice ... Mabagani: I had similar thoughts. Willie W. has asserted that this twisted core style was reserved for Panglima, and that they were highly positioned men in the Sultan's employ. Do we have some documentary evidence for either of these assertions? I would like to see corroboration of Willie's views. Mabagani, you have visited Moroland and spoken with locals. Does your skepticism reflect data contrary to what Willie has stated? Maybe there was the occasional "rogue" Panglima who was willing to go against the wishes of a weak Sultan, or maybe the Sultan was being duplicitous saying one thing to his enemy while at the same time having one of his Panglima do the opposite. Ian.

11th August 2006, 04:39 AM	#12
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	one of my twist cores...... Attached Images Last edited by LabanTayo; 11th August 2006 at 12:10 PM.

9th August 2006, 05:16 PM	#2
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Read this many times and debated on responding, guess which side won? There are several parts to this so bear with me and I will try not to ramble. The current state of collection affairs (them being owned by non Moros ) with regard to Moro swords is not uncommon. If you look at Japanese society very few modern Japanese could care less about the Japanese sword. There are collectors of Japanese heritage but it is mostly a rich mans game. (The primary reason I no longer collect them.) If you look at the majority of the swords they are in the hands of the non-Japanese. These non-ethnic collectors are preserving the art. A sad commentary is that many of these are old timers and are not being replaced so the future state of collecting Nihonto is in question. Japan is only interested in National Treasures being returned anything else they have no interest in. Many have had swords that they wanted to return to families only to be disappointed. Many Japanese collectors come to the USA to buy swords. Another example is the keris. I collect these. Only recently have a bought one from the country of origin. Most of my collection came from the USA or the Netherlands. So again it seems that the preservation of these artifacts is fallen on non-ethics. I know we have people on the list from Indonesian, what is the current state of affairs with regard to the keris is your country? Are the people interested in the keris or is the interest only a select few? Now at last here is my point. Moro swords are seeing the same phenomena as relics of other cultures. In Cato’s book he points out a lack of interest in swords by Moros. I suspect like everywhere else there is little interest in preserving swords except for culturally significant (re National Treasures) swords. (Cato mentions one such in his book). While there are many who man not like it, this is just the progression of things. If you use ebay as an example how many swords do you see coming from MoroLand? This sword that started this thread was in the UK. I have collected a few, all from the US. I have only seen one seller from the Philippines selling on ebay. Now my next point is a matter of perception and price. It seems many of us thought the price was excessive and is driving the price of these swords out of reach of the average collector. I submit to you that it is not. Here are my reasons why, in this thread; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2851 Willie W stated, “Twisted cores such as the one shown were reserved for the panglimas, and not datus. Datus were dime a dozen, but to be a panglima is something else.” So lets go with this. This sword had a twisted core and was therefore most likely for a panglima. It seems accepted that the panglima was the right hand of a Sultan. If that is the case how many things destined for a man of this statue can be had for this price? While it was high, I like that fact that if I save and eat Ramen noodles for a year or so I too could buy a sword that was a step away from a Sultan. I can think of nothing else I can do that with. This sword is an exceptional piece that went for price that many of use could save for. I think we should all take heart those exceptional pieces like this are still within reach, albeit a stretch. Ok that’s it what do you’ll think?

9th August 2006, 10:03 PM	#3
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I don't buy the statements, twist cores were reserved for panglima or panglima were the right hand of the sultan... If "twist cores" were reserved for panglima would everyone be a panglima who owned an early kris? If panglima were the right hands, why did Panglima Hassan of the infamous Bagsak battle/massacre lead 10,000 followers to fight the US, against the plea of the Sultan?

10th August 2006, 02:55 AM	#5
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	The assertion was more specific but without detail. I'd ask, so which Sultanate? and era? May not be the right forum if we're delving into politics. I gave examples that contradict comments on the thread when some are accepting them as fact.

10th August 2006, 12:10 PM	#10
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	This is fascinating. Learning more about the Moro. I am re-reading Cato and he says that the Datus had considerable power, an ability to raise large armies quickly, -- sometimes more power than a panglima or even a sultan -- as many as 10,000 men. Seems like the Moro did a lot of fighting among themselves and never really unified their tribes under one common leader. If they had been able to unify, they would have been a far more formidable force. I am impressed that they were still able to hold off the Spanish for almost 400 years. There are far more erudite and knowledgeable people on this forum and I would like to know more. Pity there are such few books written about this marvelous people. Can anyone recommend books other than Cato and "Swish of the Kriss?"

11th August 2006, 06:10 AM	#13
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Laban Tayo, Awesome, that almost looks like a snake crawling across my screen...bee you tee full!!!