Meteorite Dagger?

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by fearn

The obvious problem is that the terrestrial iron isn't pure iron, nor is the carbon to make the steel pure carbon. There's going to be a mix of other trace elements that will have to be factored in.

Fearn, There are a number of Meteorites Labs that receive “large” numbers of unknown samples sent to them. Anything from mining slag to your common variety of earth rocks. The whole point of fingerprinting with trace elements is because the trace elements that are found in cosmic source materials are unique enough for positive identification. You can check against the database and identify what you have. You will know if it is an earth rock… or if it is Lunar (Lunars are a little different than earth rocks)… or Martian, which was a little more work (it was the trapped gassed that ID’ed these). It would be highly improbable that you would get at trace element (ratio/concentration) match by accident. If you have worked with these curves (not much unlike FT-IR), then you know what I mean,

Originally Posted by fearn

The unobvious problem is that keris blades are occasionally cleaned with an arsenic (As) solution, so the researcher has to factor in the accumulation (if any) from cleaning. Since it's not pure arsenic in the Indonesian cleaning solutions, this would take some experimentation.

Surface contamination is an issue on any sample to be tested. This is the reason the surface is removed (polished), to reveal that actual material that you want to test.

[fearn]

I agree BSMStar, so long as we're talking about ID'ing meteorite samples.

When we're trying to ID the meteoric component in a knife made of mixed terrestrial and meteoric materials, it's a bit more complex. The blade is made of:
1) the meteoric material (with a readily identifiable asteroidal fingerprint?)
2) iron from a terrestrial source, with either a known or unknown chemical fingerprint depending on age and source, and
3) carbon (for steel) from a terrestrial source, that probably contains traces of contaminants such as cesium, mercury, or whatever, depending on the source of the carbon (charcoal, coal, etc).

I'll submit that this mixture can be deciphered if 2) and 3) are known--basically, in an industrial setting, especially where the steel is purchased and contains 2 and 3 already. In a non-industrial setting, such as with a century-plus old keris from somewhere in Java, it will be extraordinarily difficult to decipher all three, since we have little idea about the source any of the ingredients.

F

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by fearn

I agree BSMStar, so long as we're talking about ID'ing meteorite samples.

When we're trying to ID the meteoric component in a knife made of mixed terrestrial and meteoric materials, it's a bit more complex.

Fearn, the distribution for elements in cosmic sources is different than terrestrial sources. It’s that simple and that unique. I do not know how to better explain it. It is a matter of being able to detect that fingerprint in a diluted form. I believe it is possible if the concentration of meteoritic material is high enough. The only issue would be if an exotic alloy was used with the fingerprint traces as ingredients… not likely in a 200 year old Keris.

Also, keep in mind that meteorites are older than earth rocks. We are not looking at Rubidium/Strontium ratios (good age indicators), but are not the trace indicators we are looking for (not looking specifically for isotopes, we are looking at elemental abundance - unless something has changed in the pass thirty some years).

Also, (let me add) in the field of Tektites, LDG (Libyan Desert Glass) has a very small amount of a meteoritic component, that is traceable back to a chondritic impactor. LDG is believed to be earth rock impactites (as are all true Tektites), created during an “impact” event. Talk about an unknown mix and meteoritic dilution… but the fingerprint is still there.

Fearn, you have the last word.

[Jeff Pringle]

I think the amount of Iridium in typical (not the meteorite impact ones)mineralized (ore-bearing) Earth rocks is measured in a couple ppb (part per billion), down to parts per trillion; the two iron meteorite info sheets on the previously posted Metbase link were a couple ppm (parts per million) - it seems like even after taking into account the concentrating effects of smelting and the diluting effects of mixing meteoric metal and earth metal, there's room for a noticeable difference.
But it's all speculation until we get some data to crunch.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

I believe it is possible if the concentration of meteoritic material is high enough. The only issue would be if an exotic alloy was used with the fingerprint traces as ingredients… not likely in a 200 year old Keris.

But isn't this the rub. I mean, would the concentration of meteoritic really be all that high in a 200 year old keris. Not 50 percent certainly, at least not in the entirety of the blade. Yes, it would probably be concentrated in the pamor areas, but what keris collector that you know is going to alloww someone to polish off ANY amount of the pamor on their keris for testing. Not me, for sure. Frankly i think the obsession with meteorite blades (keris in partictular) is way out of hand anyway. It is not the main determining factor for a good keris. In fact someone has yet to prove to me that it was even used in keris before the Prambanan fall in the mid 18thC, so it is not therefore vital to the art. In many ways this reminds me of the effects of gold fever. I still don't see that the methods discribed are viable in determining tghis question, even if technically it is possible.

[BSMStar]

nechesh, as earlier stated, testing your collection may not be desirable. I would not take a valuable Pusaka and test it (any why would you want to). But I believe I have made the point that testing old blades which are not deemed “valuable,” to see what percentage of the population may contain meteoritic material, may have some worth. My gut feel is that it well be far fewer than people think. It may let us know if there is indeed a look (a pamor affect) and feel (tactile response) to the blades that contain meteorite. Therefore, there will be some benefit for the research effort that could be applied to blades in our collections (or we may find out you can only tell by testing).

I think the rub is talking someone to doing the research… and giving up the samples.

[nechesh]

Frankly Wayne, i'm not too sure i really like the thought of ANY keris being destroyed for this purpose. I can tell you (though i certainly can't prove it ) that your gut feeling on this matter is most probably entirely correct. I think you would find a relatively few keris actually contain this material. I would also image that when meteorite was used it was not for unimportant blades, so i'm not too sure that looking for meteorite in what some refer to as "junk" blades is going to prove very much since these blades are not likely to contain it. I do believe there is a look and feel that does indicate the likelihood of meteorite and i believe these clues have been discussed in the past, but i think that the only way to really convey this information would be studying these blades in person with someone who is familar with this ID process. It's a bit hard to get that kind of knowledge across on the internet. Ultimitely i think that determining this matters much more to market values and dealers than it does to the real study of keris, but i guess that's just my way of looking at it. It would be nice to know if i had a meteorite keris, but i am not up to destroying any keris to prove it.

[BSMStar]

nechesh, I understand your position. On the Japanese side, knowing they use damaged and broken swords… did not lighten the pain to a collector… that they are in turn cut up... and analyzed. But even if a number of old “not valuable” Keris were tested, they would then be a part of an invaluable/indispensable collection of reference pieces, although further damaged by the testing. But I fully understand not wanting to do this with any (historically valuable) piece (and to me, they all are historically valuable), there will be no replacing them. As I have said, it depends on how bad do you want to know.....

Hey Jeff...

The earlier pic that you posted, is this a "meteorite blade?" It would be interesting to find out as to what affects on layering that you've noticed and at what percent meteorite material.