A Portugese Question

A. G. Maisey · 1st August 2006, 11:36 PM

Yes, as with many things of foriegn origin in Jawa, the original music played by Portugese speaking people there has probably morphed into something more uniquely Javanese in its nature. As has the instrument which gives it its name; the cavaquinho is like a four stringed uke, but the kroncong (instrument) used in kroncong is most often a three stringed instrument, although it can sometimes be four strings, and has a couple of different tunings. They don`t even call it a kroncong these days, it gets called "cuk" and "cak", depending on pitch.
Kroncong is credited with contributing to langgam jawa too, as well as campur sari, and even dangdut, but I think dangdut owes more to the "pop melayu" of thirty or so years ago.

Anyway, regarding the existence of the word "sangkur" prior to existence of bayonets. I`ve looked at the instances given, and checked a couple of references, and my comments follow.

Sangkur Temple in Bali

It seems there are at least a couple of temples in Bali that incorporate the word "sangkur" in their names. There is Pura Pucak Sangkur on Bukit Sangkur (AKA Bukit Resi), there is Pura Hyang Sangkur. There could well be others.

I do not know the meaning of "sangkur" in this context, and have been unable to find out.

Dictionary checks tell me that in Balinese there are two meanings to the word "sangkur", neither of which seems to be appropriate to the name of a temple:-

sangkur:- variation of "sangkut":- to hook onto (Anandakusuma)

sangkur---without a tail (Sutjaja)

then there is the word:- sangku---holy water container (Sutjaja)

which is a root word coming from Old Javanese and Kawi, but this is probably also not suitable, because of the use of "hyang" in one of the pura names; "hyang" is a title for a diety.

It would seem that in Balinese the word "sangkur" has a meaning associated with the Bali-Hindu faith.

This being so, I think we can probably discount the occurrence of the word "sangkur" in Bali, as a possible contributor to its use as meaning bayonet in Indonesian.

Sangkur Mountain in Sunda

I do not have access to a Sundanese dictionary, so have been unable to find the meaning(s) for "sangkur" in Sundanese. However, there is a Sundanese song:- "Sangkur Ratu", which is consistently translated to English as "The King`s Sword". Possibly in Sundanese "sangkur" has the meaning of "sword", which is similar to, but is not, a bayonet.

The City of Banjar has an official history that only begins in 1937. I do not know how long Banjar existed as a small town or village prior to becoming sufficiently important to have its own lambang (logo, coat of arms), but this lambang was designed after Indonesian independence, as the star used in the lambang was drawn from the Pancasila.

Similarly I do not know how long Gunung Sangkur has been known as this.

I do not think that we can presume that Gunung Sangkur was known as Gunung Sangkur since ancient times, and at the present time the meaning of "sangkur" in Sundanese is still not very clear.

Accordingly, I believe we can dismiss the possibility that the occurrence of the word "sangkur" in the Sundanese language has contributed to the use of "sangkur" as the word for "bayonet" in the Indonesian language.

Sangkuriang

The proper name "Sangkuriang" could be a combination of "sangkur"+"iang", but I believe it is more likely to be a combination of "sangku" and "riang", if it is a combination at all."Sangkur" is Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia), which has only been in general use since after independence in 1946, and perhaps means "sword" in Sundanese, but "iang" would seem to me to not have any meaning. "Sangku" is an older word that occurs in other languages, and "riang" has the meaning of "glad, joyful", but I do not know where this word originates. We really need a Sundanese dictionary, and probably an Old Sundanese dictionary too.

Further Findings

However, I have found that in Sanscrit (Macdonell) the word "sank-u" exists, where it has the meanings of :- "nail, spike, arrow, peg, spear, dart, stake".

In Old Javanese (Zoetmulder) the word "sanku" has several meanings:
bowl, nail, arrow, spear, gnomon,+ a specific type of unknown weapon, possibly a spear+ a specific fixed time.

The meanings relevent to this discussion would be :- arrow & spear, as well as the unknown weapon.

In Modern Javanese the word "sangku" also has several meanings:-
"water bowl, basin" (Robson & Wibisono)

"arrow" (Prawiroatmodjo, Balai Bahasa Yogyakarta)

" metal bowl, tub, copper bowl" (Prawiroatmodjo)
" metal bowl" (Balai Bahasa Yogyakarta)

We already know that in Modern Javanese the word "sangkuh" means "bayonet".

Conclusion

Bearing in mind the way in which a bayonet is used, that is as a fixture to the front of a weapon (firearm) that hurls projectiles , and accordingly could be seen as either an arrow (Old Javanese:- "sangku"), or in its fixed form, as a spear (Old Javanese:- "sangku"), I think that at this point we may reasonably be able to state with some degree of certainty that the Modern Javanese word "sangkuh", meaning "bayonet", comes from the Old Javanese word "sangku", meaning "arrow", and "spear", and that this Old Javanese word "sangku" comes from the Sanscrit "sank-u" meaning, amongst other things, "arrow", and "spear". The Indonesian word "sangkur" probably comes from the Javanese word "sangkuh".

Apologies

I admit that it would have saved a lot of time and a lot of trouble if I had done this work in the first place, instead of throwing wild ideas around, but this sort of thing takes time, in this case about two hours, and time does have a value. I probably should not have commented on this sangkuh in the first place. All my comments ultimately did were to cause work for other people, for which I apologise, and for myself.

fernando · 2nd August 2006, 07:32 PM

Evidently our perspectives are taken from a different angle.
This is work, but one for pleasure ... i wish i have been some usefull.
If you didn't pose the question in the first place, i would have no chance to, before passing the findings to you, achieve all the knowledge out of them, myself. And knowledge allways comes handy.
I also ought to tell you that i completely assimilate your conclusions paragraph. It will still question myself if the Gunung called Sangkur has the configuration of a Spear, or some other kind of alegoric or symbolic relation, like a ( old spear/sword or modern bayonet ) battle having take place at the mountain, or the like ( coincidences are realy rare ).
Eventually i have found that the Portuguese ( and Dutch ) also had some envolvement in this thing of the places names. The Sunda region, for example, became a much larger area than original defined by the locals, because those foreigners "so decided".
Not to speak of Sunda Caldera ( vulcan crater in portuguese/spanish. )
Kind regards
fernando

fernando · 2nd August 2006, 08:18 PM

I would say its the other way round, as i learned long time ago.The four stringed Ukelele is practically like the Cavaquinho, or Braguinha ( from Braga, where is still considerably produced ). I would say that both Uke and Kroncong had the same origin, one more modified by nationals than the other, as you observed. However and considering you are within these things, i tell you i wonder how this instrument was the base for actual fado, considering nowadays the backing instrument is a twelve stringed unique shaped guitar, the cavaquinho having a more generic folk music, and also performing in popular "orchestras" of fifty or more of this (only) instrument. I know fado had different stages and styles, like a just ended version of crying out loud "real dramatic" stories in the streets, selling the story printed panphlet, and expecting people's tips. Either the ( male ) musician or ( female ) singer were often blind people.
But i am diverting ... i better stop now.
regards
fernando

ariel · 2nd August 2006, 09:47 PM

Interesting topic: linguistic of weapons. From what I could understand, there is unlikely to be a direct connection between the Portugese Sangue and Sangkur: just phonetic resemblance.
Many words in many languages have uncanny phonetic resemblance to other, unrelated, words in other languages. It is inevitable, because there are only so many sounds we can construct.
Some of them become a butt of jokes, especially when the translation is "risky". I know several of those (some with unfortunate personal experience) and could quote them, but the good taste of some Forumites is likely to be offended

Then there are homophones: words that are spelled differently and have different meaning , but may have similar (or, more precisely, confusing for the non-native speakers) pronounciation. even more dangerous....

A. G. Maisey · 2nd August 2006, 11:17 PM

The uke is a Hawaiian instrument, and ---as I understand it---was introduced to Hawaii by Portugese settlers in the last quarter of the 19th century.

I think we can safely say that both the uke and the cuk came from the same Portugese instrument, only at widely separated points in time.

Yes, I agree that the cavaquinho could well have been the original instrument used in fado.

As for similar sounding words, yes, this can cause a lot of amusement. Even the cuk that they use in kroncong is the same sound as the Australian colloquial for a chicken:- chook.

2nd August 2006, 07:32 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Evidently our perspectives are taken from a different angle. This is work, but one for pleasure ... i wish i have been some usefull. If you didn't pose the question in the first place, i would have no chance to, before passing the findings to you, achieve all the knowledge out of them, myself. And knowledge allways comes handy. I also ought to tell you that i completely assimilate your conclusions paragraph. It will still question myself if the Gunung called Sangkur has the configuration of a Spear, or some other kind of alegoric or symbolic relation, like a ( old spear/sword or modern bayonet ) battle having take place at the mountain, or the like ( coincidences are realy rare ). Eventually i have found that the Portuguese ( and Dutch ) also had some envolvement in this thing of the places names. The Sunda region, for example, became a much larger area than original defined by the locals, because those foreigners "so decided". Not to speak of Sunda Caldera ( vulcan crater in portuguese/spanish. ) Kind regards fernando Last edited by fernando; 2nd August 2006 at 08:23 PM.

2nd August 2006, 08:18 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	the cavaquinho is like a four stringed uke I would say its the other way round, as i learned long time ago.The four stringed Ukelele is practically like the Cavaquinho, or Braguinha ( from Braga, where is still considerably produced ). I would say that both Uke and Kroncong had the same origin, one more modified by nationals than the other, as you observed. However and considering you are within these things, i tell you i wonder how this instrument was the base for actual fado, considering nowadays the backing instrument is a twelve stringed unique shaped guitar, the cavaquinho having a more generic folk music, and also performing in popular "orchestras" of fifty or more of this (only) instrument. I know fado had different stages and styles, like a just ended version of crying out loud "real dramatic" stories in the streets, selling the story printed panphlet, and expecting people's tips. Either the ( male ) musician or ( female ) singer were often blind people. But i am diverting ... i better stop now. regards fernando

1st August 2006, 11:36 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, as with many things of foriegn origin in Jawa, the original music played by Portugese speaking people there has probably morphed into something more uniquely Javanese in its nature. As has the instrument which gives it its name; the cavaquinho is like a four stringed uke, but the kroncong (instrument) used in kroncong is most often a three stringed instrument, although it can sometimes be four strings, and has a couple of different tunings. They don`t even call it a kroncong these days, it gets called "cuk" and "cak", depending on pitch. Kroncong is credited with contributing to langgam jawa too, as well as campur sari, and even dangdut, but I think dangdut owes more to the "pop melayu" of thirty or so years ago. Anyway, regarding the existence of the word "sangkur" prior to existence of bayonets. I`ve looked at the instances given, and checked a couple of references, and my comments follow. Sangkur Temple in Bali It seems there are at least a couple of temples in Bali that incorporate the word "sangkur" in their names. There is Pura Pucak Sangkur on Bukit Sangkur (AKA Bukit Resi), there is Pura Hyang Sangkur. There could well be others. I do not know the meaning of "sangkur" in this context, and have been unable to find out. Dictionary checks tell me that in Balinese there are two meanings to the word "sangkur", neither of which seems to be appropriate to the name of a temple:- sangkur:- variation of "sangkut":- to hook onto (Anandakusuma) sangkur---without a tail (Sutjaja) then there is the word:- sangku---holy water container (Sutjaja) which is a root word coming from Old Javanese and Kawi, but this is probably also not suitable, because of the use of "hyang" in one of the pura names; "hyang" is a title for a diety. It would seem that in Balinese the word "sangkur" has a meaning associated with the Bali-Hindu faith. This being so, I think we can probably discount the occurrence of the word "sangkur" in Bali, as a possible contributor to its use as meaning bayonet in Indonesian. Sangkur Mountain in Sunda I do not have access to a Sundanese dictionary, so have been unable to find the meaning(s) for "sangkur" in Sundanese. However, there is a Sundanese song:- "Sangkur Ratu", which is consistently translated to English as "The King`s Sword". Possibly in Sundanese "sangkur" has the meaning of "sword", which is similar to, but is not, a bayonet. The City of Banjar has an official history that only begins in 1937. I do not know how long Banjar existed as a small town or village prior to becoming sufficiently important to have its own lambang (logo, coat of arms), but this lambang was designed after Indonesian independence, as the star used in the lambang was drawn from the Pancasila. Similarly I do not know how long Gunung Sangkur has been known as this. I do not think that we can presume that Gunung Sangkur was known as Gunung Sangkur since ancient times, and at the present time the meaning of "sangkur" in Sundanese is still not very clear. Accordingly, I believe we can dismiss the possibility that the occurrence of the word "sangkur" in the Sundanese language has contributed to the use of "sangkur" as the word for "bayonet" in the Indonesian language. Sangkuriang The proper name "Sangkuriang" could be a combination of "sangkur"+"iang", but I believe it is more likely to be a combination of "sangku" and "riang", if it is a combination at all."Sangkur" is Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia), which has only been in general use since after independence in 1946, and perhaps means "sword" in Sundanese, but "iang" would seem to me to not have any meaning. "Sangku" is an older word that occurs in other languages, and "riang" has the meaning of "glad, joyful", but I do not know where this word originates. We really need a Sundanese dictionary, and probably an Old Sundanese dictionary too. Further Findings However, I have found that in Sanscrit (Macdonell) the word "sank-u" exists, where it has the meanings of :- "nail, spike, arrow, peg, spear, dart, stake". In Old Javanese (Zoetmulder) the word "sanku" has several meanings: bowl, nail, arrow, spear, gnomon,+ a specific type of unknown weapon, possibly a spear+ a specific fixed time. The meanings relevent to this discussion would be :- arrow & spear, as well as the unknown weapon. In Modern Javanese the word "sangku" also has several meanings:- "water bowl, basin" (Robson & Wibisono) "arrow" (Prawiroatmodjo, Balai Bahasa Yogyakarta) " metal bowl, tub, copper bowl" (Prawiroatmodjo) " metal bowl" (Balai Bahasa Yogyakarta) We already know that in Modern Javanese the word "sangkuh" means "bayonet". Conclusion Bearing in mind the way in which a bayonet is used, that is as a fixture to the front of a weapon (firearm) that hurls projectiles , and accordingly could be seen as either an arrow (Old Javanese:- "sangku"), or in its fixed form, as a spear (Old Javanese:- "sangku"), I think that at this point we may reasonably be able to state with some degree of certainty that the Modern Javanese word "sangkuh", meaning "bayonet", comes from the Old Javanese word "sangku", meaning "arrow", and "spear", and that this Old Javanese word "sangku" comes from the Sanscrit "sank-u" meaning, amongst other things, "arrow", and "spear". The Indonesian word "sangkur" probably comes from the Javanese word "sangkuh". Apologies I admit that it would have saved a lot of time and a lot of trouble if I had done this work in the first place, instead of throwing wild ideas around, but this sort of thing takes time, in this case about two hours, and time does have a value. I probably should not have commented on this sangkuh in the first place. All my comments ultimately did were to cause work for other people, for which I apologise, and for myself.

2nd August 2006, 09:47 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interesting topic: linguistic of weapons. From what I could understand, there is unlikely to be a direct connection between the Portugese Sangue and Sangkur: just phonetic resemblance. Many words in many languages have uncanny phonetic resemblance to other, unrelated, words in other languages. It is inevitable, because there are only so many sounds we can construct. Some of them become a butt of jokes, especially when the translation is "risky". I know several of those (some with unfortunate personal experience) and could quote them, but the good taste of some Forumites is likely to be offended Then there are homophones: words that are spelled differently and have different meaning , but may have similar (or, more precisely, confusing for the non-native speakers) pronounciation. even more dangerous....

2nd August 2006, 11:17 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The uke is a Hawaiian instrument, and ---as I understand it---was introduced to Hawaii by Portugese settlers in the last quarter of the 19th century. I think we can safely say that both the uke and the cuk came from the same Portugese instrument, only at widely separated points in time. Yes, I agree that the cavaquinho could well have been the original instrument used in fado. As for similar sounding words, yes, this can cause a lot of amusement. Even the cuk that they use in kroncong is the same sound as the Australian colloquial for a chicken:- chook.