eBay "liquidated" my antique blade!

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This is just how things are, sad but we have to lump it. I would even be careful of importing items with bone handle are elements.

Thanks Tim.

The eBay keris was not from a collector, it was from an estate sale. From the perspective of the seller, the keris was a random object they clearly knew very little about. The brief description the seller provided contained no information about the raw material(s) comprising the hilt and buntut. Hence, there was no mention of any of the materials or components of the keris being organic parts of animals that would fall under CITES prohibitions. I do not understand how I can apply for a CITES certificate under these circumstances based on a couple of photos of an unexplained whitish-looking material in the eBay listing. They could have been plastic/resin replacement parts for all I know.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by adamb

I am neither, Detlef, and you are not very polite; how can I arrange CITES papers for an object that, according to the seller's description, raises no issues CITES-wise.

Hello Adam,

I woke up at 4 a.m., took a look at this thread, and was deeply shocked when I saw the auction photos you posted. I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory.
Even if the keris had somehow managed to leave the USA by some fluke, it would almost certainly have been confiscated by Australian customs. It wasn't for nothing that I posted the attached thread; you could have known that this was a gamble. Incidentally, the seller also violated eBay's rules.
I couldn't find any other words this morning—sorry. It wasn't meant to be rude! I am sorry that you perceived my words as rude, but I am a person who speaks plainly.

Best regards,
Detlef

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Adam,

I woke up at 4 a.m., took a look at this thread, and was deeply shocked when I saw the auction photos you posted. I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory.
Even if the keris had somehow managed to leave the USA by some fluke, it would almost certainly have been confiscated by Australian customs. It wasn't for nothing that I posted the attached thread; you could have known that this was a gamble. Incidentally, the seller also violated eBay's rules.
I couldn't find any other words this morning—sorry. It wasn't meant to be rude! I am sorry that you perceived my words as rude, but I am a person who speaks plainly.

Best regards,
Detlef

I am not interested your sorry-not-sorry apology, just an explanation as to how one would go about applying for a CITES permit through the relevant authorities in both the US and Australia when the materials in question are unidentified.

"I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory."

You are quite wrong: I have seen components that, based on the (usually poor) online images, look very much like ivory (these are Australian auctions I'm talking about) that turn out to be modern resin.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by adamb

You are quite wrong: I have seen components that, based on the (usually poor) online images, look very much like ivory (these are Australian auctions I'm talking about) that turn out to be modern resin.

Really?
Here what you write to Alan:

Thanks Alan, in this case there was no mention of the hilt and buntut material in the seller's description on eBay; indeed the word 'ivory' did not appear in connection with the keris at all. I was of course hoping to be pleasantly surprised when it arrived, but from the seller's photos I could not be sure that the material was not bone or tridacna (although I believe the latter would also raise CITES issues), maybe even resin if very unluckly. It had occurred to me that US customs might seize it at the border if they inspected it and found it to be ivory, but I believed (no doubt naively) that the date of "1809" on the label would clearly show that the artefact long pre-dates the CITES agreement, and that I would be given the opportunity to make that case to US customs. Indeed, the keris was accompanied by a hard copy of paperwork proving that it had been acquired by the former owner in the early to mid 20th century.

Can anyone tell me what happens with CITES if a buyer acquires an antique from an overseas seller that they suspect/hope has an ivory component, when no mention of that is made by the seller in their description of the item?

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Really?
Here what you write to Alan:

Thanks Alan, in this case there was no mention of the hilt and buntut material in the seller's description on eBay; indeed the word 'ivory' did not appear in connection with the keris at all. I was of course hoping to be pleasantly surprised when it arrived, but from the seller's photos I could not be sure that the material was not bone or tridacna (although I believe the latter would also raise CITES issues), maybe even resin if very unluckly. It had occurred to me that US customs might seize it at the border if they inspected it and found it to be ivory, but I believed (no doubt naively) that the date of "1809" on the label would clearly show that the artefact long pre-dates the CITES agreement, and that I would be given the opportunity to make that case to US customs. Indeed, the keris was accompanied by a hard copy of paperwork proving that it had been acquired by the former owner in the early to mid 20th century.

Can anyone tell me what happens with CITES if a buyer acquires an antique from an overseas seller that they suspect/hope has an ivory component, when no mention of that is made by the seller in their description of the item?

Yes really. When the material is completely unidentified, in fact when the seller's extremely sparse description of the item does not even mention or allude to the whitish-coloured material at all, what is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit through both the US and my home country?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by adamb

I am not interested your sorry-not-sorry apology, just an explanation as to how one would go about applying for a CITES permit through the relevant authorities in both the US and Australia when the materials in question are unidentified.

Accept my apology or don't—that is entirely up to you. You state that, according to the label, the keris dates back to 1809; did plastic materials even exist back then?
Ivory of some sort always needed a CITES certificate, sadly. When you had been informed you should have known this.

And as a collector, I assume that you knew full well that it was, in all likelihood, ivory. In this case, it makes absolutely no difference whether the seller knew this or not. Ignorance plays absolutely no role in this instance.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Accept my apology or don't—that is entirely up to you. You state that, according to the label, the keris dates back to 1809; did plastic materials even exist back then?
Ivory of some sort always needed a CITES certificate, sadly. When you had been informed you should have known this.

And as a collector, I assume that you knew full well that it was, in all likelihood, ivory. In this case, it makes absolutely no difference whether the seller knew this or not. Ignorance plays absolutely no role in this instance.

It wasn't an apology, so there's nothing to accept.

I have a 19th century Moro kris with a replacement component made from plastic or resin of some kind - in any case, you read what I wrote before: for all I know, I thought the whitish-coloured material could be modern replacement parts.

If I had known what it was and I had all the information, I would have applied for the CITES permit(s).

You keep (plainly) asserting that I am ignorant, so explain to me (third time I've asked): What is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit, which requires specifying the listed species in question, when you do not know if the material in question is even of an organic nature?

[Lee]

The recriminations need to stop. Back to the topic!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by adamb

You keep (plainly) asserting that I am ignorant, so explain to me (third time I've asked): What is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit, which requires specifying the listed species in question, when you do not know if the material in question is even of an organic nature?

I had this issue years ago with a dagger I bought/auctioned by a Swiss auction house, you need an export CITES paper and an import CITES paper, at this time the auction house has been very helpful.
Here what AI stated:

CITES documentation consists of mandatory permits and certificates required for the international import, export, or re-export of endangered animals and plants, including parts or products. These documents, regulated by a treaty, ensure trade is legal, sustainable, and traceable. The required paperwork is verified at customs and depends on the species' protection level.Key Aspects of CITES DocumentationPermit Types: Export permits, import permits, re-export certificates, and certificates of origin are the main documents.Appendices I, II, & III: The type of permit depends on which CITES appendix the species is listed under, with Appendix I requiring the strictest control.Documentation Required:Export Document: Valid copy of the permit from the exporting country.Import Permit: Necessary for Appendix I species, often requiring evidence of legal acquisition.Scientific Documentation: Legal acquisition certificates for scientific purposes.Live Animal Transport: Specific documentation regarding the housing and care of live animals during transport is often needed.Key Information & ProceduresIssuing Authorities: Permits are issued by the designated Management Authority in each country.EU Requirements: Within the EU, strict documentation is required for Annex A species, and import/export permits are needed for trade outside the EU.Verification: Customs officials at border inspection posts verify the documentation upon import or export.In-Transit Requirements: Shipments moving through a country still require a valid CITES document from the country of origin to the destination.For official information regarding documentation in Germany, the Federal Agency for Nature Conservation (BfN) provides detailed guidelines and forms.

It's an not easy procedure but I think that it's in your special case it's to late and you would need the help of the seller.

Regards,
Detlef