"Saracen" sword

ham · 31st July 2006, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

This is important because kilij blades are more disirable of shamshir blades.

More disirable (sic)? Matter of personal preference, that.

erlikhan · 31st July 2006, 07:35 AM

A Turkish style Persian kilij. The hilt is changed -according to me-,thats perhaps because I hate these type ugly and cheap iron hilts,and because of this I can't match it with a beautiful kilij blade. And Ham,your opposition about preferences is right but -I think- Yannis talked for general. If the same sword had a shamshir blade instead of a kilij,for sure it would have a lower closing bid. Prices of many shamshir swords we see on ebay would easily double up if those swords had kilij blades.

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2006, 04:35 AM

The 16th century assessment and the archaic term Saracen surely do present a colorful description worthy of highly romanticized literature, recalling the antique weapons catalogs of a certain dealer whose name will not be used here

Sometimes I miss those old catalogs!!!

I agree with the observations placing this blade about late 18th c into the early 19th, and feel that it may well be one of the neoclassic blades that were termed 'Kalachuri'. In Oliver Pinchot's excellent article "The Persian Shamshir: and the Signature of Assad Allah" ("Arms Collecting", Vol.40, #1, February,2002), he notes the revival of these medieval type blades in the 19th century which had distinct ethnic significance for Persia's Turkic enclaves as well as in fact the Qajars themselves whose origins were Turkic. The shamshir remained popular of course with the Persian nobility.
The obviously later hilt and mounts, which as noted appear of probably latter 19th century, seem consistant with the Qajar 'revival' items, which I cannot recall details of thier production. Usually they are with this type motif, and the cast hilt reminds me of similar Indian weapons of that period, especially some of the serpentine bladed,parrot head hilted swords.

In the article it is noted that,"...the enormous demand for Persian blades both in Persia and abroad resulted in great increases in production at such centers as Khorassan, Qazvin and Isfahan in the late 18th and 19th centuries". Further "...Persian smiths reverted to producing a heavier and more complex type of blade, replete with fullers, grooves and false edge, which had been popular prior to the reign of Abbas". (p.7).
The data listed previous suggests these were the 'kalachuri' blades.

With the Arabian affinity for Persian blades, it does seem quite plausible that this sabre might have found its way there via the established trade routes.
It is therefore of earlier blade type, made probably in Persia of Turkic form, and later in 19th century as mounted. A most interesting sword.

Still cant figure why the guy didn't complete the description with 'scymitar'!!!

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 1st August 2006, 04:54 AM

OK, Jim, you said the magic word: Kalachoori!
I am dying to get some actual information about this type of sword.
Please look at my early post
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2695

I am sure you have much more to say about it

Jim McDougall · 5th August 2006, 02:56 AM

Hi Ariel,
The term 'kalachuri' was taken from the footnotes in Olivers article, and I cannot seem to locate other references corresponding. I think the best sources for more on the term would be either Oliver himself or Philip Tom as they have comprehensive knowledge of this terminology.
Best regards,
Jim

31st July 2006, 07:35 AM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	A Turkish style Persian kilij. The hilt is changed -according to me-,thats perhaps because I hate these type ugly and cheap iron hilts,and because of this I can't match it with a beautiful kilij blade. And Ham,your opposition about preferences is right but -I think- Yannis talked for general. If the same sword had a shamshir blade instead of a kilij,for sure it would have a lower closing bid. Prices of many shamshir swords we see on ebay would easily double up if those swords had kilij blades. Last edited by erlikhan; 31st July 2006 at 09:40 AM.

1st August 2006, 04:54 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, Jim, you said the magic word: Kalachoori! I am dying to get some actual information about this type of sword. Please look at my early post http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2695 I am sure you have much more to say about it Last edited by ariel; 1st August 2006 at 05:15 AM.

1st August 2006, 04:35 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	The 16th century assessment and the archaic term Saracen surely do present a colorful description worthy of highly romanticized literature, recalling the antique weapons catalogs of a certain dealer whose name will not be used here Sometimes I miss those old catalogs!!! I agree with the observations placing this blade about late 18th c into the early 19th, and feel that it may well be one of the neoclassic blades that were termed 'Kalachuri'. In Oliver Pinchot's excellent article "The Persian Shamshir: and the Signature of Assad Allah" ("Arms Collecting", Vol.40, #1, February,2002), he notes the revival of these medieval type blades in the 19th century which had distinct ethnic significance for Persia's Turkic enclaves as well as in fact the Qajars themselves whose origins were Turkic. The shamshir remained popular of course with the Persian nobility. The obviously later hilt and mounts, which as noted appear of probably latter 19th century, seem consistant with the Qajar 'revival' items, which I cannot recall details of thier production. Usually they are with this type motif, and the cast hilt reminds me of similar Indian weapons of that period, especially some of the serpentine bladed,parrot head hilted swords. In the article it is noted that,"...the enormous demand for Persian blades both in Persia and abroad resulted in great increases in production at such centers as Khorassan, Qazvin and Isfahan in the late 18th and 19th centuries". Further "...Persian smiths reverted to producing a heavier and more complex type of blade, replete with fullers, grooves and false edge, which had been popular prior to the reign of Abbas". (p.7). The data listed previous suggests these were the 'kalachuri' blades. With the Arabian affinity for Persian blades, it does seem quite plausible that this sabre might have found its way there via the established trade routes. It is therefore of earlier blade type, made probably in Persia of Turkic form, and later in 19th century as mounted. A most interesting sword. Still cant figure why the guy didn't complete the description with 'scymitar'!!! Best regards, Jim

5th August 2006, 02:56 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Ariel, The term 'kalachuri' was taken from the footnotes in Olivers article, and I cannot seem to locate other references corresponding. I think the best sources for more on the term would be either Oliver himself or Philip Tom as they have comprehensive knowledge of this terminology. Best regards, Jim