British Infantry Officers Battle Swords in the 19th C...and up to 1914

[Bryce]

Here is Osborn and Gunby's attempt to produce a serious cut and thrust blade. Known to collectors as the "Osborn and Gunby blade".
Cheers,
Bryce

[Tim Simmons]

Some really super swords being shown in this thread.

[Peter Hudson]

Hello Tim , I quite agree , in fact these exhibits are the best I have ever seen including the weapon being studied which when fired ...ranged at 2,000 yards must have been incredible.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

To which I add;
A British, Jacob’s Double Barrel Rifle Carbine, From The Early British Raj. Period. In fact the weapon I speak of was an experimental version and rather a special one off piece but it was very similar and I thought to include the write up...

The gun is the very inspiration for the famous Military Jacob's Rifle, used by the Scinde Irregular Force, Jacob’s Rifles, in the early 1850's, and this was commissioned for an officer of the regiment.

A writer of the period described shooting a rifle of this form:
“The recoil is by no means pleasant. Jacob recommended a powder charge of some 2 drams 68 grains of gunpowder! This rifle does not seem to have any advantages at sporting ranges; but for military purposes it has been strongly recommended. Especially in reference to the explosive shells which are used with it. The shells require a short stout barrel, and cannot be used with a long thin one, like the Enfield still, Enfield-style rifles were actually manufactured with Jacob rifling, and seemed relatively popular. For killing large animals, like the elephant or rhinoceros, they are particularly qualified; and I should strongly recommend elephant hunters to examine the merits of this rifle. This rifle was made to accompany the howdah pistol as the big game hunting rifle to be equally at home on foot, on horseback or while standing in a howdah on one's elephant. But also for perfect use in Indian irregular cavalry by gentlemen officers.

The Jacob's rifle was designed by General Jacobs of the Honourable East India Co. who was so admired and respected by all who knew him, for his intelligence and skill of command, he had a city named after him, in modern day Pakistan, called Jacobabad. He had spent 25 years improving rifled firearms, carrying on experiments unrivalled even by public bodies. A range of 200 yards sufficed in cantonments, but at Jacobabad he had to go into the desert to set up butts at a range of 2000 yards. He went for a four grooved rifle and had numerous experimental guns manufactured in London by the leading gunsmith George Daw and completely at his expense. Jacob, like Joseph Whitworth, was renowned not only as a soldier but as a mathematician, and his rifle was as unconventional as its designer. Rather than using a small .45 caliber bore Jacob stayed with more conventional .57-58 caliber (Bill Adams theorizes that this would allow use of standard service ammo in a pinch). In any case his rifle used four deep grooves and a conical bullet with corresponding lugs. Though unusual the Jacob's rifle, precision made in London by master gunsmiths like George Daw, quickly gained a reputation for accuracy at extended ranges. They appealed in in particular to wealthy aristocratic scientists like Lord Kelvin, who swore by his. Jacob wanted to build a cannon on the same pattern, but died early at age 45.
A few Jacob’s were used during the American Civil War, and those were privately owned, usually by men able to afford the best. There is one account of one of Berdan’s men using one (the chaplain, Lorenzo Barber), who kept one barrel of his double rifle loaded with buckshot and the other with ball.

Jacob's Rifles was a regiment founded by Brigadier John Jacob CB in 1858. Better known as the commandant of the Sind Horse and Jacob's Horse, and the founder of Jacobabad, the regiment of rifles he founded soon gained an excellent reputation. It became after partition part of the Pakistani Army, whereas Jacob's Horse was assigned to the Indian Army. A number of his relatives and descendants served in the Regiment, notably Field Marshal Sir Claud Jacob, Lieutenant-Colonel John Jacob and Brigadier Arthur Legrand Jacob, Claud's brother.

As commander of the Scinde Irregular Horse, Jacob had become increasingly frustrated with the inferior weapons issued to his Indian cavalrymen. Being a wealthy man, he spent many years and much money on developing the perfect weapon for his 'sowars'. He eventually produced the rifle that bears his name. It could be sighted to 2000 yards
(1 830m), and fire explosive bullets designed to destroy artillery limbers. It also sported a 30 inch (76,2cm) bayonet based on the Scottish claymore.

Jacob was an opinionated man who chose to ignore changing trends in firearm development, and he adopted a pattern of rifling that was both obsolete and troublesome. Nevertheless, his influence was such that during the Mutiny he was permitted to arm a new regiment with his design of carbine. It was named Jacob's Rifles.

Orders for the manufacture of the carbine and bayonet were placed in Britain, and all was set for its demonstration when Jacob died. In the hope the East India Company would honour the order, production continued for a little over a year.

[Peter Hudson]

More detail here..https://www.royalartillerymuseum.com...-sword-bayonet
Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

Old notes, found this:

From "Charge to Glory", James Lunt, (1976) p.1:
"...the charge will always remain the thing in which it will be the cavalrymans pride to die, sword in hand". -Cavalry Journal, 1909.

He dedicated the book to his friend, Capt. Arthur Sandeman, of the Central India Horse, who died leading a contingent of about 60 mounted sowars of the Burma Frontier Force in the last mounted cavalry charge of British cavalry on March 21, 1942.
On patrol at Toungoo, Burma, which was the site of the airfield for the famed American Volunteer Group (the 'Flying Tigers') , seeing a body of military they first mistook for Chinese, then realizing it was Japanese infantry who opened fire....
Capt. Sandeman instinctively raised his sword, the over 60 sowars, mostly Sikhs, charged , in the old style with sabers. He and most of the sowars were killed,

[Triarii]

Coming late to this, during the C16th and C17th the rapier was indeed noted as being unmilitary, being too long for the battlefield and unable to pierce any form of protection.

However, one reason the introduction of the rapier for use by gentlemen was initially condemned was because a thrust through the body was invariably fatal whereas cuts from broadsword and backsword blades were often survivable. Masters of Defence were expected to prove their mastery via fights with live blades and the 'swashbucklers' would fight with live blades and both would live to tell the tale.

Work by Dr Ismini Pells on pensions claimed and issued to soldiers of both sides during and after the ECW / BCW / WOTK showed that only 4% of those claiming pensions (usual health warnings etc) were due to sword injuries. From that we can either deduce that swords were rarely used (unlikely for example given the preponderance of cavalry during that era and the contemporary accounts of stormings) or that swords rarely inflicated debilitating injuries. I incline to the latter, suspecting that many wounds were treatable cuts.

[Peter Hudson]

Hello Triarii, well its all confusing and to many its all rather not worth arguing about but the upshot was that swords in the context of serious conflict weapons ...ie WW1 in 1914, were off the battlefield. So really it makes no difference which style was used... They all went home.
...To us this was a catclysmic end to the whole business of collecting and history of weapons...Other than for parades and ceremonial duties...apart from the odd individual military action...the sword was finished...and the corner was turned in favour of gunpowder weapons...and associated weaponry like Bayonets. Swords continued and indeed were diverted to be used in wars further afield like in the orient and in other spheres like in India...The amazing orders to get swords off the Battlefield and replace them with swagger sticks to one side...sub units were reorganised to replace the sword including the use of shotguns and pistols etc. The American soldiers developed a useful pump action shotgun they knicknamed The Trench Broom. and there were some useful revolver and magazine fed pistols as a backup weapon...and the use of cavalry moved apace to include the use of Mounted Infantry
using shorter barrel carbines etc.
However having said all that ... I still think it worth considering what blades were being used at the time and how was sword design handled up to its sudden demise. Indeed I think the period during which swords were removed from the battlefield spans a vital opportunity to view the many blade styles that aoppeared in our historical record. There was a bounceback of styles covering hundreds of years of sword development...As an example look at the 1821 pipeback which was redesigned with a solid backblade in 1845 and with a huge fuller and retaining its spear point...and for use up til the end of the 19thC. The old 1821 wasnt simply ditched but went on to be purchased for Indian Cavalry such as The Scinde Irregular...Jacobs Horse...while at the same time blades of every shape size and style appeared.as if the late 19th C.was being held up as a mirror for all things Sword Style...and yet just around the corner it was all about the come to a halt! Thus its important place in our study I think.
Regards,
Peter Hudson.